Babies going to hell...

[emprworm]

No.

[TMA_1]

lol whoa

acriku, no babies do not have any belief in anything. that includes God.

Athiesm is learned. You make a choice NOT to believe. now if you just dont understand how things work or you cant comprehend, or you are just unsure and cant say either way, that is called being agnostic. Babies are ignorant of this stuff. that is what agnostic means. You are twisting what athiesm means man.

[emprworm]

Acriku is using a clever little logical twist to try and make a point that babies are born atheist.

atheist as defined as "lack of belief in god", therefore his statement is true.

where Acriku fails in this nice little logical trickery is that he is trying to lead you into a slippery slope argument where the end result is that the default position for all humans is naturalism. But this is totally false. It is a slippery slope argument. Clever, but easily identified.

Babies are not born naturalists. And it is naturalism that ultimately characterizes an atheist in the true and practical sense of the word. Find me one single atheist that denies naturalism. You wont. You never will. The two are inexorably linked like butter on toast (nutella for you Europeans :D )

babies are not born naturalists, hence the slippery slope suddenly gets some dry chalk treatment.

[Acriku]

Ok empr, I assume that is an answer to my question. Now, since the baby has no belief in god, the baby lacks a belief in god. Agreed?

Agnosticism and gnosticism is a different subject. It is whether you know you have enough information to arrive at the correct conclusion. You do, or you don't. Atheism and theism is the lack of belief in god, or the belief in god (whichever god(s) that might be). You can be one, and the other, or the other one and the other, or the one and the other other, or the other and the other other. I am an agnostic atheist. Glad we can clear things up.

[Gobalopper]

What difference does that make? This thread is about babies going to hell not whether or not they are athiests. You can't say baby -> athiest -> going to hell. It doesn't work that way.

[emprworm]

What difference does that make? This thread is about babies going to hell not whether or not they are athiests. You can't say baby -> athiest -> going to hell. It doesn't work that way.

yes, indeed. Gob points out a second slippery slope argument. Wow, acriku, thats a 2 for 1 deal!! lol.

2 slippery slope fallacies committed in one post.

baby=atheist=true

baby=naturalist=false

naturalism requires a conclusion.

naturalism is the true enemy of God, not atheism.

[Acriku]

It doesn't work that way? Babies right after birth, or during birth, are atheists. Since they do not have faith in god, which is a requirement to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, or so I have been told, they go not get into the Kingdom of Heaven. I say they go to hell, while others might say they go to purgatory or some limbo. Do human beings with no belief in god go to heaven?

[emprworm]

It doesn't work that way? Babies right after birth, or during birth, are atheists. Since they do not have faith in god, which is a requirement to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, or so I have been told, they go not get into the Kingdom of Heaven. I say they go to hell, while others might say they go to purgatory or some limbo. Do human beings with no belief in god go to heaven?

well the babies aren't naturalists, so that is a plus for them.

now, as to your questions: the requirement for going to heaven is not faith in God, but grace from God. "Do human beings with no belief in god go to heaven? " Uhh..that is up to God. But there is no explicit verse that says they wont. If you conclude in naturalism, however, there are explicit verses that say you wont, but then no man enters heaven by his faith, but only by God's grace.

[Acriku]

How does one receive God's grace? By faith in him?

Up to God? So you are telling me I have a chance to get into heaven if God wants me to? So no one has to believe in him while still getting in right?

[emprworm]

How does one receive God's grace? By faith in him?

Up to God? So you are telling me I have a chance to get into heaven if God wants me to? So no one has to believe in him while still getting in right?

faith in Christ means you go to heaven.

The norm is that no belief in Christ does not get you into heaven. But that is not absolute. Scripture leaves an "out clause" by stating that God's grace is the true power that grants one into heaven. SO one who has no faith in Christ could still go to heaven, but that would be an exception and individual circumstances must be considered (a child, a mentally handicapped person, an old-testament prophet, etc). The bible does not exclusively say ONLY those who believe in Jesus while living as a human on earth will go to heaven. It says that ALL who believe in Jesus while living as a human on earth will go to heaven, and there may be others in heaven according to God's grace, but don't count on it. Basically, if you understand that believing in Christ grants one into heaven, you will have no "out clause", so no, you don't really have a chance wihtout faith.

[Acriku]

Of course, you will have to provide the bible to back up this reasoning. Not that I am saying you are wrong, just that I won't take anything without any backup of what would happen. Speculation brings fairy tales of the mind.

[emprworm]

Ephesians 2:4-10

4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved!

2 Samuel (regarind the death of Davids infant son)

22And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the LORD[2] will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

does this mean that all babies go to heaven? Dont know. Perhaps. What it does mean is that some go to heaven who have never made a conscious choice of belief. BUT, they didn't make a concious choice of unbelief either. I do not want to give you the impression that the Bible teaches one can go to heaven after making a concscious choice of unbelief- that would be entirely false.

[Acriku]

In conclusion, no one knows if babies go to hell or heaven, or some limbo in between. If anybody wants to add something to the discussion, feel free to.

[emprworm]

yes, that is correct. however i have an unorthodox view on hell anyway so i don't think my fellow Christian believers will agree with me anyway :)

[Edric O]

Acriku, it's not belief in God and/or Jesus Christ that gets you into heaven. It's freedom from sin. Babies are naturally born free of sin. Adults can become free of sin through belief in God and good acts. (Protestants do not agree with the part about good acts, but that's another story)

[Acriku]

The only way for sin to affect your chance hugely is to not ask for forgiveness, and those who do not believe in Jesus can't ask for forgiveness, so in a way that is just screwing the non-believers ;)

[DjCiD]

Not all of the non-believers have the problem where they cannot ask for forgivness. For example why do they not believe in Jesus?

Is it because they have not heard of him and the prophesies? If they have not heard or learned how will they know to ask forgiveness?

Maybe they have a disability and cannot mental learn of him. Neither will they know to ask for forgiveness. What if the disability isn't that major, what if they are deaf or blind and not mentally handicapped? Well the deaf can still see possibly even read let them be shown the word. Let those that cannot see with there eyes let them hear the word so that they may see. (talking about the spiritual seeing again ;)) After learning they can choose to believe and ask forgiveness and for Jesus to enter their life and heart.

The un-born, infants, and children cannot make a cognitive choice to follow Christ, so like the others that cannot make a choice.

I believe and have faith that they too will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I cant give you exact word for word scripture it is just my perspective of the scriptures. Some will agree and others will disagree.

Now if these infant's/children live to where with a mental ability they can learn and understand who Christ is and about his teachings and prophesies They will then bee able too see and have the choice of dedicating their life to him. They can choose to believe or not to believe.

[Acriku]

I wasn't talking about the babies actually, only those who make a conscious decision that they will not believe in that god.

[DjCiD]

Oh, ok my misunderstanding.

[Caid Ivik]

I wasn't talking about the babies actually, only those who make a conscious decision that they will not believe in that god.

What is a conscious decision to not believe in God?

"So, I think it's all a non-sense. We are just couple of carbon and water, same as bacteria or these trees. Then why I am so limited? Why these people still tell me what should I do? Why shouldn't I ignore my inner feelings what is good and bad? Yes, that's it! I will banish God from my life, destroy this phantom barrier and show the world my true power! I live just for short, and I can feel pleasure, so let's do it!"

You call this conscious, I call this crazy, self-destruction of own values. We were given this world and we have some responsibility over it. No one will escape it. If you believe in our values, but you say that not in God, you believe de facto in both. If you call it a "principe" or "God", it's same. If they banish the word, but remain with spiritual values, that banishing was just formal, and if they'll live for common good they have same place in Heaven as good christians. I can say that other form, banishing values covering with pseudobelieve, is much more sinful, because it is laughing to God's face.

[Acriku]

Jeez empr, you're everywhere with that post lol ;)

You call this conscious, I call this crazy, self-destruction of own values. We were given this world and we have some responsibility over it. No one will escape it. If you believe in our values, but you say that not in God, you believe de facto in both. If you call it a "principe" or "God", it's same. If they banish the word, but remain with spiritual values, that banishing was just formal, and if they'll live for common good they have same place in Heaven as good christians. I can say that other form, banishing values covering with pseudobelieve, is much more sinful, because it is laughing to God's face.

You think atheism is a breakdown of morals. Well I say you are wrong. Keep your closed mind, but do not try to tell me about it.

[ken124578]

*ignores the discussion*

IMO babies that cannot /hear/read/choose in what they believe (not knowing a language, being deaf/blind/having, having a handicap that cannot let them believe in god/jezus or dying too early to even hear the word religion) will go to 'heaven' as you christians call it :)

btw. i'm an antheist.

[Acriku]

What's an antheist? And is that your belief or what you see in the bible?

[ken124578]

atheist.

*goes back to lurk mode*

[TMA_1]

I showed acriku the definition of Athiest using dictionaries. After he realized it is a rejection of belief, he said that the dictionaries are false. I mean it just CANT be joe that is wrong.lol ;)