Miles : a piece of US history for you.

[zamboe]

MILES

READ THIS, SO YOU'LL NEVER SAY THE SAME THING AGAIN ABOUT US HISTORY

Since Miles went off topic in another post.

I'll answer here to his comments of a post that Edrico made, that only show that he knows about nothing of US history of destruction of democracies.

Of course not... it will install a "democratic leader" with unlimited power and who gets re-elected all the time, because those who don't like him have a tendency to go on a little vacation... permanently.

Again, you are talking nonsense. What in our history would make you think something ridiculous like this? Our goal is to set up a true democracy.

The situation I will describe has happened IN MY COUNTRY.

The consecuences are still afecting today's life of every chilean.

I'll make it short so I can get to the point.

1970 : In a democratic election, President Allende was elected in Chile. He got more than 50% of the votes. He became President and the house of representatives was stablished as the laws and the democratic system stablished.

1972 : President Allende started a series of reforms with the approval of the Congress. President Allende named Pinochet as the Chief Commander of the Army.

1973 : The CIA started a plot againts the Chilean Democratic and specially against President Allende and the top authorities of the goverment. CIA managed to take control of the Army giving orders to Pinochet.

Under CIA plans, President Allende was killed in the presidential palace, the whole building was bombed. Pinochet took the presidency. US inmediately recognized Pinochet goverment, and accepted it for 17 years. No congress and unlimited power for Pinochet, at that point the US embassy was the CIA headquarters.

During 17 years, 10000+ chilean opositors were killed and tortured. This is a worlwide known case of extreme HR violations. US and it's agencies like CIA were supporting it all the time. Later the support to the dictatorial regime was also from the UK, when Pinochet offered assistance in the Falklands (Malvinas) war, back in 1983.

The whole plan was elaborated by Henry Kissinger, and approved by President Nixon.

In 2000, US relased to public opinion 16000+ pages of the classified documents of the participation of the CIA, which included 1500 reports of the plans to destroy the chilean democracy and the instauration of a dictator and the murdered of thousand of democratic leader, as well as the sent to exile to hundreds of them too.

In a recent conference Collin Powell was asked about this double US standart, speaking about democracy and doing the contrary, his answer represented an insult to Chile. I'll quote it, and provide a link to the US official gov if you want to read it all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" Q : My name is James Dubek (ph). My question is that undoubtedly the United States considers itself the moral superior in this Iraq confrontation. My question is, despite past events such as in 1973 when the United States staged a coup in Chile on September 11th, despite the wishes of the Chilean populace against the coup, and in support -- and the populace in support of the democratically elected President Salvador Allende, the CIA, regardless, supported the coup of Augusto Pinochet and that resulted in mass deaths.

And my question is: Why does the United States now consider itself the moral superior enough to have nuclear weapons while Iraq -- while demanding that Iraq disarm, yet we still maintain our weapons?

Secretary Powell: With respect to your earlier comment about Chile in the 1970s and what happened with Mr. Allende, it is not a part of American history that we're proud of. We now have a more accountable way of handling such matters and we have worked with Chile to help it put in place a responsible democracy.

One of the proudest moments of my life was going to Chile in the late '80s and speaking to all of the military officers in the Chilean armed forces, all the senior officers, and talking to them about democracy and elected representative government and how generals such as them and me -- I was a general at the time -- are accountable to civilian authority so that incidents of that kind or situations of that kind no longer arose."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AFTER WHAT THE US DID TO CHILE. AFTER WHAT THE US DID TO A TRUE DEMOCRACY AND HIS PRESIDENT. AFTER THE CIA AGENTS KILLED MANY CHILEAN CIVILIANS. AFTER THEY SUPPORTED PINOCHET GOVERMENT FOR 17 YEARS.

US AND UK HISTORY ARE FULL OF TALKING ONE THING AND DOING THE CONTRARY.

THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER BELIEVE WHEN THE US TALKS ABOUT DEMOCRACY FOR OTHER COUNTRIES, US HAS DESTROYED DEMOCRACIES AND HAS NO LONGER MORAL AUTHORITY TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT, UNTIL NOW MANY FAMILIES, MOTHERS CRY FOR THOSE TERRIBLE LOSSES.

THAT'S THE MAIN REASON BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE WHEN US AND HIS PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

SAME THING FOR THE UK.

links,:

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/03022115.htm

http://www.latercera.cl/lt/Articulo/0,4293,3255_5664_15639267,00.html

http://www.latercera.cl/lt/Articulo/0,4293,3255_5664_15595241,00.html

[Miles]

MILES

READ THIS, SO YOU'LL NEVER SAY THE SAME THING AGAIN ABOUT US HISTORY

Since Miles went off topic in another post.

I'll answer here to his comments of a post that Edrico made, that only show that he knows about nothing of US history of destruction of democracies.

Of course not... it will install a "democratic leader" with unlimited power and who gets re-elected all the time, because those who don't like him have a tendency to go on a little vacation... permanently.

Again, you are talking nonsense. What in our history would make you think something ridiculous like this? Our goal is to set up a true democracy.

The situation I will describe has happened IN MY COUNTRY.

The consecuences are still afecting today's life of every chilean.

I'll make it short so I can get to the point.

1970 : In a democratic election, President Allende was elected in Chile. He got more than 50% of the votes. He became President and the house of representatives was stablished as the laws and the democratic system stablished.

1972 : President Allende started a series of reforms with the approval of the Congress. President Allende named Pinochet as the Chief Commander of the Army.

1973 : The CIA started a plot againts the Chilean Democratic and specially against President Allende and the top authorities of the goverment. CIA managed to take control of the Army giving orders to Pinochet.

Under CIA plans, President Allende was killed in the presidential palace, the whole building was bombed. Pinochet took the presidency. US inmediately recognized Pinochet goverment, and accepted it for 17 years. No congress and unlimited power for Pinochet, at that point the US embassy was the CIA headquarters.

During 17 years, 10000+ chilean opositors were killed and tortured. This is a worlwide known case of extreme HR violations. US and it's agencies like CIA were supporting it all the time. Later the support to the dictatorial regime was also from the UK, when Pinochet offered assistance in the Falklands (Malvinas) war, back in 1983.

The whole plan was elaborated by Henry Kissinger, and approved by President Nixon.

In 2000, US relased to public opinion 16000+ pages of the classified documents of the participation of the CIA, which included 1500 reports of the plans to destroy the chilean democracy and the instauration of a dictator and the murdered of thousand of democratic leader, as well as the sent to exile to hundreds of them too.

In a recent conference Collin Powell was asked about this double US standart, speaking about democracy and doing the contrary, his answer represented an insult to Chile. I'll quote it, and provide a link to the US official gov if you want to read it all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" Q : My name is James Dubek (ph). My question is that undoubtedly the United States considers itself the moral superior in this Iraq confrontation. My question is, despite past events such as in 1973 when the United States staged a coup in Chile on September 11th, despite the wishes of the Chilean populace against the coup, and in support -- and the populace in support of the democratically elected President Salvador Allende, the CIA, regardless, supported the coup of Augusto Pinochet and that resulted in mass deaths.

And my question is: Why does the United States now consider itself the moral superior enough to have nuclear weapons while Iraq -- while demanding that Iraq disarm, yet we still maintain our weapons?

Secretary Powell: With respect to your earlier comment about Chile in the 1970s and what happened with Mr. Allende, it is not a part of American history that we're proud of. We now have a more accountable way of handling such matters and we have worked with Chile to help it put in place a responsible democracy.

One of the proudest moments of my life was going to Chile in the late '80s and speaking to all of the military officers in the Chilean armed forces, all the senior officers, and talking to them about democracy and elected representative government and how generals such as them and me -- I was a general at the time -- are accountable to civilian authority so that incidents of that kind or situations of that kind no longer arose."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AFTER WHAT THE US DID TO CHILE. AFTER WHAT THE US DID TO A TRUE DEMOCRACY AND HIS PRESIDENT. AFTER THE CIA AGENTS KILLED MANY CHILEAN CIVILIANS. AFTER THEY SUPPORTED PINOCHET GOVERMENT FOR 17 YEARS.

US AND UK HISTORY ARE FULL OF TALKING ONE THING AND DOING THE CONTRARY.

THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER BELIEVE WHEN THE US TALKS ABOUT DEMOCRACY FOR OTHER COUNTRIES, US HAS DESTROYED DEMOCRACIES AND HAS NO LONGER MORAL AUTHORITY TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT, UNTIL NOW MANY FAMILIES, MOTHERS CRY FOR THOSE TERRIBLE LOSSES.

THAT'S THE MAIN REASON BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE WHEN US AND HIS PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

SAME THING FOR THE UK.

links,:

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/03022115.htm

http://www.latercera.cl/lt/Articulo/0,4293,3255_5664_15639267,00.html

http://www.latercera.cl/lt/Articulo/0,4293,3255_5664_15595241,00.html

I would reiterate what Powell said. We are not proud of some of the things that we have done in the past. We do not claim to be infallable. I think there are many questionable courses that our government has taken in the past, and because of this incident, I understand why you would be very skeptical.

However, you fail to mention the other good examples of how we have treated post war countries i.e. Japan, Kosovo, Kuwait, Afghanistan, South Korea, Germany, etc... Our record is not without stains, but we learn from those and try to improve our policies.

This does not show that I know nothing of US history. It only shows that I don't know everything. My "off topic" comment was in response to Edric, so blame him if you want to.

[emprworm]

this is why, Zamboe, limited terms in office are so good for a government. when you have IDIOTS like Nixon running the show back in the days of the cold war, this kind of paranoid nonsense was frequent. The US has no justification for that particular incident, and thankfully Nixon was ousted. He was exceedingly paranoid and a shame to the US. Only 4 years per president, though...8 max. Thank goodness.

[Acriku]

10 max years actually, Amendment 22 :)

[thomas]

man we need rev. al sharpton as a president "TODAY WE PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS BLESSING!" :D ;D yea!

[zamboe]

I would reiterate what Powell said. We are not proud of some of the things that we have done in the past. We do not claim to be infallable. I think there are many questionable courses that our government has taken in the past, and because of this incident, I understand why you would be very skeptical.

Miles, there are some things where no one (country, person, institution) can afford to fail.

I am amazed that you only consider that a "questionable courses", that US conspiration plan is worldwide famous because of being extreme in HR violations. Not to mention again the destruction of a democracy.

In this particular situation, there is no acceptable excuse to those events.

Your support of your country seems to have blocked your capacity to analize your country history with etics and fair judgement.

[emprworm]

In this particular situation, there is no acceptable excuse to those events.

Your support of your country seems to have blocked your capacity to analize your country history with etics and fair judgement.

no it hasn't. He already said he thinks that event was unjust. I said I think that event is unjust. It was utterly horrible, perhaps on the scale of vietname. Stupid, and repugnant for the US to do. It was an outrage. We both are looking at that fairly and justly. What do you want from us? What more do you want us to say? We already said that we abhor that action of the US government. You want a spotless record on every superpower? Does China have a cleaner record than the US? How about Russia? How many societies did they ruin? Are you ready to condemn Germany for all time too? Surely they did something far worse!! So are they eternally condemned? How about Columbia? Thats a nice nation for you!!!

its nice how you eternally condemn a country because they have made mistakes . I do not know Chile's history, I admit, but I'm sure I could dig up some dirt. shall i?

[SurlyPIG]

Pfft. Hey everyone, look at this incident that allegedly occurred 30 years ago, lets base all our actions and judgements off of that.

How about I base my judgement of your nation off of the ancient sacrifice rituals practiced by natives thousands of years ago?

I've never seen or heard of this in particular, and because of your usual absolute abscence of evidence, I shal dismiss it.

[Edric O]

Ace, this blatant US-aided destruction of democracy happened only 30 years ago. A very short time indeed.

If the US government did this just 30 years ago, how do I know that they won't do it again? Am I supposed to just take their word for it? ::)

[zamboe]

I've never seen or heard of this in particular, and because of your usual absolute abscence of evidence, I shal dismiss it.

You are an ignorant in America history then.

This is a major event that took place in America. In the top ten most terrible dictators that existed in the world is Pinochet, in the same category than Stalin, Mao Tse and Idi Amin.

I posted 3 links as proof for the topics I mentioned, one of them includes how Collin Powell recognized the US conspiracy against Chile democracy. If you don't read what I write and don't check at least the very first link, then your comments are worthless.

This tragic situation HAS NOT FINISHED YET.

This event has BEGUN 30 years ago. US supported it for 17 years (until 1990). The goverment agents keep killing inocent chilean civilians for 17 years !.So far there is only 2 persons in jale now, olny 2 !. Several process just recently went to justice because the information that CIA released in 2000 allowed it to happen, several processes are still under investigation, you know why ? because less than 10% of the bodies (of those who were killed) have been found, most of them are still hidden. In Chile you can see on a daily basis, the suffer of families that so far don't have a place to cry to their relatives, because their bodies have not yet been found.

I wish you could tell them, "hey it's been 30 years ago, forget about it and go on", that only shows how repugnant is your attitude towards HR and life.

Btw, in some cases those civilians, the males were killed in their own houses in front of their wifes and childrens, and womens were deported to foreing countries. And you ask them to forget !, they still alive and still shocked for that. That's the CIA way.

[zamboe]

no it hasn't. He already said he thinks that event was unjust. I said I think that event is unjust. It was utterly horrible, perhaps on the scale of vietname. Stupid, and repugnant for the US to do. It was an outrage. We both are looking at that fairly and justly. What do you want from us? What more do you want us to say? We already said that we abhor that action of the US government. You want a spotless record on every superpower? Does China have a cleaner record than the US? How about Russia? How many societies did they ruin? Are you ready to condemn Germany for all time too? Surely they did something far worse!! So are they eternally condemned? How about Columbia? Thats a nice nation for you!!!

I guess you didn't get the point I was trying to make, or I didn't expressed properly, so I will do it again. This goes for Miles too.

Miles mentioned :

However, you fail to mention the other good examples of how we have treated post war countries i.e. Japan, Kosovo, Kuwait, Afghanistan, South Korea, Germany, etc... Our record is not without stains, but we learn from those and try to improve our policies.

You (emprworm) said :

this is why, Zamboe, limited terms in office are so good for a government. when you have IDIOTS like Nixon running the show back in the days of the cold war, this kind of paranoid nonsense was frequent. The US has no justification for that particular incident, and thankfully Nixon was ousted. He was exceedingly paranoid and a shame to the US. Only 4 years per president, though...8 max. Thank goodness.

First point. The US conspiracy, destruction of Chilean democracy and support for dictatorial regime of Pinochet lasted 17 years. How many US presidents besides Nixon agreed with that policy ?, well several US presidents didn't do anything but supporting it. (same goes for UK, given the fact of the Malvinas (Falkland) War).

This is a real proof that it was a National US policy towards Chile, beyond who's the president. It was carried out by several US presidents. If when Nixon left the gov, the situation would have changed, then I would think that it was just because of him. But it wasn't.

Miles, you fail to mention other examples with very similar situation of Chile, such as Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Venezuela and Brasil, in Bolivia for example the ELECTED president was also killed because of CIA intervention.

The point that I am trying to make based on what I said before is that the US has a complete double standart and discrimines in which cases follow the legal way and when to use the conspiracy that goes against the very democracy principles they talk about every day.

[Anathema]

Zamboe, there's no point in explaining this to Emp and I don't think it will work on Miles either. Emp is completely unable to imagine that his president could possibly do anything wrong, and that the world is full flowers and sunshine.

[emprworm]

Zamboe, there's no point in explaining this to Emp and I don't think it will work on Miles either. Emp is completely unable to imagine that his president could possibly do anything wrong, and that the world is full flowers and sunshine.

blah blah. so what is this latest anti-emp campaign of yours? after that last post from you in the "a reason" thread, I'm beginning to wonder the objective of this latest covert-op.

what has G.W. Bush jr. done wrong again? I think eartnuker is unable to imagine that my president could possibly do anything right, and that the world is full American imperialistic evil.

[Edric O]

Guys, you're wasting your time. Emprworm cannot comprehend the idea that his gods (the US government) could ever do something wrong...

[Miles]

I would reiterate what Powell said. We are not proud of some of the things that we have done in the past. We do not claim to be infallable. I think there are many questionable courses that our government has taken in the past, and because of this incident, I understand why you would be very skeptical.

Miles, there are some things where no one (country, person, institution) can afford to fail.

I am amazed that you only consider that a "questionable courses", that US conspiration plan is worldwide famous because of being extreme in HR violations. Not to mention again the destruction of a democracy.

In this particular situation, there is no acceptable excuse to those events.

Your support of your country seems to have blocked your capacity to analize your country history with etics and fair judgement.

First of all, just because a government is a democracy, doesn't mean it is automatically our friends. Kissinger believed that Chile was becoming a communist state. I do not defend his actions, but in the climate of the times, they would have been considered enemies.

I do analize our history with fair judgement. If you take into consideration the international climate of the time, then you would understand why we made many foolish mistakes. We were bound to make them, just as the Soviet Union did. I will not condemn our current government based on occurances from 30 years ago, especially when it seems willing to cooperate with the trial by releasing classified documents.

[Edric O]

First of all, just because a government is a democracy, doesn't mean it is automatically our friends. Kissinger believed that Chile was becoming a communist state. I do not defend his actions, but in the climate of the times, they would have been considered enemies.

And what gives you the right to interfere? If they WANT communism, who are you to overrule the decision of the majority of a country's population?

[Anathema]

Miles, many of the people who lived by then are still alive today, and thus it is perfectly acceptable to take it into consideration when judgin America.

And of course the US isn't proud of it, but does that mean anything?

[Miles]

Ace, this blatant US-aided destruction of democracy happened only 30 years ago. A very short time indeed.

If the US government did this just 30 years ago, how do I know that they won't do it again? Am I supposed to just take their word for it? ::)

The world was a very, very different place 30 years ago Edric, so in relative terms, it was a very long time ago. If you want to know our intentions, then look at our current actions. Afghanistan, Kosovo and Kuwait as well as South Korea. These should show that we do not intend on ruling the countries we liberate and defend. If that's not good enough for you, then I guess you'll just have to see what happens after Iraq.

[Miles]

I've never seen or heard of this in particular, and because of your usual absolute abscence of evidence, I shal dismiss it.

Acelethal, his evidence is legit. I have looked it up and documents de-classified by the Clinton Administration do support his claim. However, while he likes to make it sound like we had direct involvement in Pinochet's HR violations, we merely looked the other way, because Kissinger didn't want Chile to become communist.

We looked the other way just as Zamboe would have us do with Iraq. Therein lies his hypocrasy.

You are an ignorant in America history then.

This is a major event that took place in America. In the top ten most terrible dictators that existed in the world is Pinochet, in the same category than Stalin, Mao Tse and Idi Amin.

Kissinger made a mistake backing him, just as we did in supporting Saddam agains Iran. We are not infallible, but to attempt to link the actions of our current presidents with the mistakes during the cold war are invalid.

This tragic situation HAS NOT FINISHED YET.

This event has BEGUN 30 years ago. US supported it for 17 years (until 1990).

The U.S. did not support it until 1990, although we may have turned a blind eye. However, almost all of this time was still during the cold war, which admittedly was a bad time for us. Notice that it did not take long after the fall of the Soviet Union for our "support" to end.

The goverment agents keep killing inocent chilean civilians for 17 years !.So far there is only 2 persons in jale now, olny 2 !. Several process just recently went to justice because the information that CIA released in 2000 allowed it to happen, several processes are still under investigation, you know why ? because less than 10% of the bodies (of those who were killed) have been found, most of them are still hidden. In Chile you can see on a daily basis, the suffer of families that so far don't have a place to cry to their relatives, because their bodies have not yet been found.

And the U.S. government is attempting to help in this issue now. We recognize our mistake, and are attempting to make some sort of ammends.

I wish you could tell them, "hey it's been 30 years ago, forget about it and go on", that only shows how repugnant is your attitude towards HR and life.

Btw, in some cases those civilians, the males were killed in their own houses in front of their wifes and childrens, and womens were deported to foreing countries. And you ask them to forget !, they still alive and still shocked for that. That's the CIA way.

I don't ask for you to forget it, I don't even ask for your forgiveness. We should have done something to stop the HR violations, but we didn't. Nor did we stop the Human Rights violations in Rwanda.

Now for me to give it to you straight. Your country was wronged, as many others were during the cold war, but the cold war was a nasty game of chess in which pawns were sacrificed, and ruthless moves were made. I am not proud of it, but that is the way it happened.

However, events in the cold war, because they happened in a much, much different international scene with much different international policies is irrelevant to the discussion of Iraq. Our policies have changed, and I'm sorry that your bitterness is blinding you, but it doesn't make you right.

[Miles]

First of all, just because a government is a democracy, doesn't mean it is automatically our friends. Kissinger believed that Chile was becoming a communist state. I do not defend his actions, but in the climate of the times, they would have been considered enemies.

And what gives you the right to interfere? If they WANT communism, who are you to overrule the decision of the majority of a country's population?

If a democratic state voted to sponsor terrorism against the United States, we have every right to interfere. Communism was the terrorism of the times and threatened our existance as democratic capitalists. We were attempting keep the momentum from shifting to communism. That is the way wars are fought.

[Anathema]

Exept that Chile wasn't supporting or planning to support any agressions against the USA. The US interference was out of sheer paranoia and disregard of Chilean lives.

[Miles]

Exept that Chile wasn't supporting or planning to support any agressions against the USA. The US interference was out of sheer paranoia and disregard of Chilean lives.

Did you not read my previous post? Kissinger did believe that Chile was becoming a communist state. At that time, communism was believed to be a threat to our national security. Those Chileans became casualties of the cold war.

[Miles]

Miles, many of the people who lived by then are still alive today, and thus it is perfectly acceptable to take it into consideration when judgin America.

And of course the US isn't proud of it, but does that mean anything?

Sure it is, if you are willing to drudge up the mistakes of other countries to give it it's relative significance. There are no clean states, and most have a far worse record than ours.

[emprworm]

Miles, many of the people who lived by then are still alive today, and thus it is perfectly acceptable to take it into consideration when judgin America.

And of course the US isn't proud of it, but does that mean anything?

i hate to say this but earthnuker is right. so long as there are still generations directly connected to those events, it is understandable their opinions. However, that is no reason to condemn the US today- the cold war era was another completely different era.

[Miles]

Miles, many of the people who lived by then are still alive today, and thus it is perfectly acceptable to take it into consideration when judgin America.

And of course the US isn't proud of it, but does that mean anything?

i hate to say this but earthnuker is right. so long as there are still generations directly connected to those events, it is understandable their opinions. However, that is no reason to condemn the US today- the cold war era was another completely different era.

I didn't say he was wrong. I just say that before you demonize the U.S., look at the atrocities done by ALL other countries and the compare. Then you will find that ALL countries have severely wronged another people. No one is clean.