My Perceptions of the Anti-War Mob

[emprworm]

Now back to you: If you have any source to suggest the Iraqi people are free to leave, I will read your sources.

I also never stated that Saddam wasn't a dictator. *sigh*.. nevermind Emp. I'm kinda fed up with you putting words in others mouth and twisting the conversation. I honestly tried having a normal discussion with you, but you sure make things impossible.

i never said that you said he was never a dictator.

i never meant to imply that i said that you said or that i would say that i said that you said nor even am I trying to hint that I said that I said that I said that you said Saddam wasn't a dictator.

What I said was: "Surely this can be assumed right?....or can it not be assumed?"

A question, my good friend Nyar, is never someone putting words in your mouth, but it represents your golden, shining moment to utter those words from your own mouth.

You asked: "You (Emp) stated that they don't have that freedom. If you have a source, I would gladly read it."

I found this an odd question given that Saddam is a dictator. How do I answer this? By citing the definition of Dictator, and then wondering if I need to continue on and prove that he is indeed a dictator.

I never said that you said he wasn't a dictator.

I never said that I said that you said he wasn't a dictator.

I never said that you said that I said that I said he wasn't a dictator.

I never said that you said that I said that you said that I said that I said that he wasn't a dictator.

I NEVER SAID <infinite variations> that YOU SAID <infinite variations> that he wasn't a dictator.

I am trying to make honest conversation with you. Yet in your pursuit to prevent me from putting words in your mouth, you are carrying it so extreme and overboard, that you cramming my mouth full of them. You are going so far as to read questions and then accuse me of putting words in your mouth from a question! ::)

THis has two effects:

#1) You are putting words in my mouth

#2) You make conversation impossible

If i see one more of your standard, incessant rehtorical "i never said" false accusations, I'm going to puke bile. :-[ :-X

Thank you! :D

[Nyarlathotep]

Now, do you really want me to cite sources proving that Saddam is a dictator? Surely this can be assumed right?....or can it not be assumed.

I never questioned the fact he's a dictator. So where did this come from then ? My imagination ?

Let me ask you another question:

When ever there's a dictator (in what ever country), citizens of that country can not leave their country ?

[Acriku]

Saddam allows freedom to the citizens, for instance they can are only told what not to do, not what to do. Atleast, that's why I have gathered. They can stay in their own house watching their hair grow for all they want, so this isn't full submission.

[GhostHunter]

I agree with Empr, they are slaves to Saddam, technicly are they actually slaves? No, of course not, but the only option they have is go along with Saddam and have slim to nim freedoms or go against him and get shot by seven AK-47's at once...

[SurlyPIG]

To me, there is only one good reason to be anti-war, in this case, and that is the lives of the civillians that would be in danger in Iraq. This is a very real issue and a very legitimate concern, one that I share. But, I treat it as such; a concern.

It's hard to know how many civillians would die in any war on Iraq. Unfortuneately you can't quantify that. I wish we could, that would make things much easier. You can, however, quantify the number of people that are dying because of Saddam today, and how many are slaves to the Iraqi regime. And the answer is dozens each day for the former, and twenty-five million for the latter.

I would estimate that about half of the anti-war population is like this. They simply believe there would be too many casualties to warrant war (even though they are just guessing). Well, that's fine. But when you couple that with Iraq's international threat, their history of war, the people dying daily, the live that Iraq is forced to live, and Saddam's refusal to comply with UN demands, it's no longer the only issue.

Of the other half that are anti war, I'd say that 95% of them are just ignorant. That they need to wake up and smell the smoking guns that blaze through Baghdad every day. Lastly, is a group of fundamentalists that unfortuneately are leading the charge and have blind support from those who don't know any better. They believe any amount of waving two fingers in the air can solve all world problems. Very idealistic, but not realistic at all.

There's a war in Iraq right now. It's the people versus Saddam, and the people are being slaughtered. I see it that either way there's a war. One war could go on forever. One would be over in a matter of weeks. One would be dragged out at a steady rate, never getting better. The other would be huge bloodshed in a short time and much more stability later. One denies people their freedom. The other re-enforces it.

The scale is unbalanced to me. To me the choice is easy, but I can see where some others are coming from. But I think you're correct, emprworm, that many just hate bush and they see it as his war.

It was kind of like Canada in the world wars. In each war, English Canada was supportive of sending the troops off to fight for the freedom of all involved countries. French Canada was reversed the same proportion. Even in World War II, when Quebec's mother country of France was toppled, Quebecers were still 4 to 1 against the war because they saw it as a British war faught because of affiliation with Britain.

[emprworm]

Now, do you really want me to cite sources proving that Saddam is a dictator? Surely this can be assumed right?....or can it not be assumed.

I never questioned the fact he's a dictator. So where did this come from then ? My imagination ?

I already explained this. Pleas read this carefully. Understand that part of conversation is that when you ask me something, I answer it using my words, not yours. Therefore, what will proceed out of my mouth after you ask a question may or may not be what you want me to say. Thats why they are my words and not yours.

But this is where debate comes into play. When my words do not match what you'd like my words to be....thats when you get a turn to offer your words.

You asked: "You (Emp) stated that they don't have that freedom. If you have a source, I would gladly read it."

I found this an odd request given that Saddam is a dictator. How do I answer this? TO ME, its pretty obvious and self-evident that they don't have freedom. Why would you make such a statement? I interpret this statement to mean that you want me to give you some kind of evidence that people don't have freedom. My interpretation is reasonable and expected. So here you are making a statement like this that wants me to give evidence that they have no freedom. What do I do? Well, cite the obvious seems to be step #1. By citing the definition of Dictator, it should be self-evident that they have no freedom unless we are questioning whether or not Saddam is actually a dictator. But without putting words in your mouth, I wanted to know if you were questioning that. And now that obviously you weren't I now want to know what the heck you were trying to say when you said:

"You (Emp) stated that they don't have that freedom. If you have a source, I would gladly read it."

Please give me a very clear translation of what you mean here since you already agree that Saddam is a dictator.

Let me ask you another question:

When ever there's a dictator (in what ever country), citizens of that country can not leave their country ?

only if the dictator allows it. This is not freedom, however. Because the dictator could also rape and murder children for pleasure with no recourse. At any time he could take one of those so-called "citizens" and beat, brutalize, torture, sodomize them for fun and games when he wants, how he wants, and to whom he wants. The fact that at any time, for any reason, to any person he can do whatever he wants to any person in his border makes all people in that border chattel.

[TMA_1]

Philemon chapter 1 verse 12 to 17

I am sending him back. You therefore recieve him, that is, my own heart, whom I wisht to keep with me, that on your behalf he might minister to me in my chains of the gospel. But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were but voluntary. For prehaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might respieve him forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave--a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the lord.

Philemon's slave ran away. He was a disobediant man that was no good at all. he accepted christ though and became noble and just. Paul loved him and wanted the best for him. Philemon's slave knew he must go back and did so. Paul though urged philemon to understand that he is more than just a slave, but a brother in christ. That he would help philemon both in flesh (as a slave), and in spirit.

first Timothy chapter 6 verse 1 to 3

Let as many bondservants (slaves) as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. And those who ahve believing masters, let them not despise them (Their slaves) because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things.

Though slavery is evil because it goes against one of the divine instituions, which is free will, ones who are in christ are not social benefiters. Our job on earth empr is not to change the world, because the world is evil. We are to follow the Word of God. This may seem horrible, but what is flesh? what is "freedom"? Freedom of soul and spirit are much greater than freedom of flesh. We arent to fight our oppressors. We are to follow the will of God, and any situation we are in, we are to understand that it is God's plan for us. Even if that includes slavery, tyranny, famin, sickness and even death.

first peter chapter 2 verse 13 to 18

Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors (minor leaders under tyrants or kings), as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evil-doers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish ment as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice (Do not abuse liberty of Good kings and leaders, do not use your voice to stifle his power.) , but as bond servance of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Whether good or bad, we must never act against any leader, whether in our country or not. We are not to become overdone in politics, because as believers, this is not our place. to those who are reading and arent belivers, understand that we have more important duties to attend to. We dont have time to judge, to argue, to slandor, to hate, to nag, to destroy. We let our faith in christ show people as an example, not to push down people's throats what we believe. We need to love and respect all people as christ did. And understand that we are not to judge unbelivers and believers alike, That is Gods place.

1st peter chapter 2 verse 18 to chapter 3

Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one indures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what credit is it if wehn you are beaten that your faults , you take it atiently? but whne you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called because christalso suffered for us, leaving us an example that you should follow his steps.

Who committed no sin nor was deciet found in his mouth (christ jesus).

Who when he was reviled, did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but committed himself to him who judges righteously (God); who himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree (the cross), that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by those stripes you were heald. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

We do not question or confirm our government as zealous crusaders. Remember when Simon, who was apart of the zealut party, wanted christ to come in order to destroy the romans for their evil tyranny. Christ told him that it isnt our place to do so. That we depend as bondservants to Rome and to spiritually be slaves to the Lord. Though Slavery and tyranny is evil, it is not our place to make social changes as world benefitters. We are in the world but not of the world.

philippians chapter 3 verse 19 to 21

Whose end is destruction, whos god is their belly (translated from the greek to mean emotions) and whose glory is in their shame--who set their mind on earthly things (From lusts and sex to bettering the world for the sake of man and not God). For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the savior, the lord jesus christ.

It is not our place to change what is earthly. It also isnt our place to overly enjoy the various appetites of this world. There is nothing wrong at all with fun because we are in the world but not of the world. I love sitting down with a nice cup of coffee and just read by the fireplace. Or go out with friends and watch movies and play video games. Remember though that people who overdo this and want to make the earth a great place or want to enjoy too much what isi in this earth. That is wrong.

1st corinthians chapter 3 verse 18 to 20

Let no one decieve himself. If anone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He catches the wise in their own craftiness.

I fail in this all the time. I want to be an ultra smart kid with lots of info to blow away everyone else. Remember that wisdom of this earth is okay. It is not to be used though to batter other people into your beliefs. What does it matter to prove to somebody that you are right about something that will only pass away to history? Isnt it more important to let your light shine through no speach, but by privately studying God's word, and showing love to those who love and hate back? Not love out of spite to really get the guy guilty, but true love.

Matthew chapter 26 verse 51 to 53

And suddenly, one of those wh were with jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. But jesus said to him, Put down your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will parish by the sword.

Though we should defend ourselves in times of trouble, we should not interfere with the will of God. If we do have a friend in trouble we should protect them, but if it is meant to be, who are we to stand in the way of God?

There are many more verses I could bring out. As christians empr, we are not to mingle in affairs of this earth. I am guilty of this as every christian is. But I know what is said in the word and try to improve on it. That is why I am trying to cut down on the arguing. What good is it to blindly follow a leader? We must always respect bush and know we cannot fight his plans. This is why I am not a protester. I do know though that I think that it is not our place to fight against another nation. Those who are in iraq shouldnt fight against saddam, evil cannot be fought by another evil. I know you are a believer empr, but you want to change the world and make everybody free and blah blah. Why is this important though? of course I would hate to be a slave and would probably do something about it. The word says though that I am to not disobey my government, even if it is evil and distructive. I also brought up the slave info because you think they are slaves, even though they arent. You see you are not following the will of the lord, only what you think is his will, but actually flies against his plan. It isnt up to you to change this world for the better. It is already evil. Let God sort it out.

TO all those who arent believers, I discussed this to empr because he is a believer, I hope you respect my words and understand that I fail all the time, but that the word of God is perfect in my opinion. That if I perfectly followed his word, I would never argue, yell, defame, sneer, slandor or anything else evil that I have done. we are all sinners though.

[emprworm]

WOah!!! WOW!

Man you are using the Bible to condone apathy for human enslavement....??? Or at minimum to say we should stand by and allow evil to propogate unchecked? Wow. I apologize to non-Bible believers here for this. I assure you the Bible does not condone slavery, or apathy towards slaver, or inaction towards slavery... and not only does it not condone slavery, it condemns it and mandates that people take action to resist evil. Apathy is a great a sin as beating someone into submission. These are types of arguments that white slaveholders of the south often used to keep their black slaves into submission. THe "slaves" referred to in Philemon were indentured servants...a completely different animal all together. In fact, nearly all of those verses used the "indentured servant" definition of slavery. This is a wholly different situation, and not at all the definition of slavery I have been using (indentured servants were known as slaves in those times).

But that isn't the point. What IS the point is this:

"As christians empr, we are not to mingle in affairs of this earth"

"Our job on earth empr is not to change the world, because the world is evil."

WOW! Oh man, you and I are on different planes. Our job is this:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Yea, I'd say that is interferring with the affairs of men. I could go on and on and on about it! Did you know TMA that Paul was committing CRIMINAL ACTS by preaching the Gospel throughout the Roman Empire? Surely you know this right? Do you think that when Paul preached a sermon, he was obeying the "rulers" of his land? Please. He was breaking the law. And doing it willingly. In the end he was beheaded. His head was chopped off because of his willful "crimes". Andrew was crucified. bartholemew was flayed alive (sick). Peter was crucified upside down. James was beheaded. in fact every single disciple, except for John, was put to death because they continually broke Roman law by spreading Christianity!!

Your verses are soooo taken out of context, I am utterly shocked. Man I do not know where you get that theology dude. NEVER stand idly by while Evil is being propogated. This is why to this day, the Church in Europe has suffered so much- because of its seemingly apathetic stance regarding Hitler. The price that the European churches have paid was dear. Because of its apathy (using your arguments), many men saw it as a vile institution void of morality- hardly a light shining on a hill. You have a duty to the least of these TMA. And I can tell you that the least of these are NOT in the USA!!!! God does not see borders! Never has, never will. He sees people, land, earth, sky, water, life. TMA sees borders, God does not! (thank you Lord)

Ever hear of the term "missionary?" What do you think that is TMA? Using your arguments, the Jews should be eliminated from the earth right now as we had no justification to bring down Hitler. Did you know now that Afghanistan is now open to missionary work more than ever before? Do you realize that once Hussein is gone, the gospel will be free to be taught in Iraq without fear of death? Not one of your verses apply to a government, only to individuals. This means you too. America is going to bring down Hussein. Why are you standing against your leaders in this? The Bible tells you "Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" so why don't you submit to your leaders, who are going to war with Hussein? WHy do you call America a #$#$ hole?

This philosophy you have...it is your right to have it.....but is very amazing that you could calmly stand idly by while people are butchered, enslaved, tortured, and ravished...and do it all in the name of "we are not to mingle in affairs of this earth" So fortunate you are TMA, that you are not an oppressed slave in Iraq, because your story would be drastically different.

"we are not to mingle in affairs of this earth"....in my opinion could only be spoken by a free man enjoying life's pleasentries.

I fully reject that philosophy. Fully....completely. So the difference between us is finally understood. At least that is a good thing.

[Caid Ivik]

First, it is primarily non-christian to argue like this, TMA and emprworm.

But I have to say to you, TMA, that taking words from the Bible in bad context is a sin too. Sin against more Church than against God, but Church is your authority, I hope so, too. You must find out that Church never should make real politics. It cares about life of individuals, state cares about the masses, complex nation. Also Church in early medieval times was non-stop cursing barbarian leaders which tyranized their conquered nations - and they accepted with them and stopped many times! What they do now? They say only "war is bad". But tyranny isn't?

Altough I never wanted to lower my Holy Father, he wasn't right that even communism fell without spilled blood. Sometimes...it must be done. For good.

[TMA_1]

that is exactly my point caid. if you ddint get that then you absolutely did not read what I said. I said that our citizenship is in heaven and not on earth. That iti snt a christians place to involve himself in this world. that it isnt our place to get involved in politics. That we submit to our government but not get too involved in it. Also, there is no established church to sin against. David said to the lord in a prayer once. "Only against you I have sinned lord". We do not sin against anybody but God. I have studied the word very much. I must say that it is what I am really good at. The bible is for study of how to live. It isnt some distant record to be taken allegorically. To me, it is exact truth to follow every day. I follow GOd, not man. I try not to involve myself in worldly matters. Also, I take the word from in this case the greek. a few different forms are used. Most of the time its coinae (sp?) greek. Sometimes other forms are used to ephesize something special. human dogma is dangerous IMO. That is why I follow the bible. I believe it is spiritual Dogma made by christ.

[Caid Ivik]

Then maybe I have wrongly understood you. But there are Church laws, which are just completing the God's laws. What I say is, that state isn't individual, for which it was based. For example your quote about List for Timothy:

"Though slavery is evil because it goes against one of the divine instituions, which is free will, ones who are in christ are not social benefiters. Our job on earth empr is not to change the world, because the world is evil. We are to follow the Word of God. This may seem horrible, but what is flesh? what is "freedom"? Freedom of soul and spirit are much greater than freedom of flesh. We arent to fight our oppressors. We are to follow the will of God, and any situation we are in, we are to understand that it is God's plan for us. Even if that includes slavery, tyranny, famin, sickness and even death."

That plan isn't for mankind. God doesn't want to have a mess on his Earth. After many centurias we have finally a world, where is some kind of order, unlike the tyrant Rome. We have been given a gift from God, that we could be born in this fantastic era with enough of anything we need. What is will of this civilisation? I am not an egoist, and we feel a responsibility to spread our wealth and knowledge for those, who weren't so luck. Again, Bible wasn't written for states, for politics, but for individuals.

[emprworm]

that is exactly my point caid. if you ddint get that then you absolutely did not read what I said. I said that our citizenship is in heaven and not on earth

well that is a "nice" position to have when your soul is all taken care of.

as long as I am alive on earth, I feel a moral duty to protect, and reach out to the sick, and those who have not seen nor have been blessed as I have. The Christian faith is not a lassaie-faire system. Just look at Paul's missionary journey's if you want to see a man who deeply involved himself in the affairs of men, broke laws of men, and died for the cause. You can enjoy your sheltered life and your freedom...paid by the blood of others....but I cannot join you in that endeavor.

[Nyarlathotep]

I've been as clear as one person can be Emp. Obviously to you I haven't, therefor nevermind...

[Caid Ivik]

I think it was a two weeks ago, when we have Evangelium about Jesus regreting over ill man and how he had healed him. It was about that Jesus didn't want to say why we have all bad on Earth; he wanted to say how would we resist it, because "slavery, tyranny, famin, sickness and even death" ARE bad. And "bad" means "not in God's will".

[emprworm]

I've been as clear as one person can be Emp. Obviously to you I haven't, therefor nevermind...

as you wish. it is true, I am unable to debate with you. as with all communication, there is a component called "interpretation". When i write down a sentence, you interpret it to try and understand my meaning. When you write a sentence, I do the same. Obviously I do not have your brain so I cannot know what you are exactly thinking, yet I feel like you put this standard on me. no matter how I try to interpret what you say, you come back with the repetitive "dont put words in my mouth". I could play that same game with you, but it is a lame game to play, and I wont do it (though I did it a couple posts ago because I got so weary of it).

When you tell me this sentence: "You (Emp) stated that they don't have that freedom. If you have a source, I would gladly read it." I have to interpret that. Can I peer inside your brain? Obviously not. How the heck do I know what you are thinking? I read that sentence and conclude that you are requesting I present evidence that the Iraqi people are not free. So then I have to take flack from you that because I interpreted your sentence, therefore somehow I am putting words in your mouth. This makes debate utterly impossible and completely futile. So I am in full agreement with your words "nevermind". Yea, I concur wholeheartedly. You don't talk to me, I wont talk to you. I hope we can have that peaceful agreement.

[emprworm]

I think it was a two weeks ago, when we have Evangelium about Jesus regreting over ill man and how he had healed him. It was about that Jesus didn't want to say why we have all bad on Earth; he wanted to say how would we resist it, because "slavery, tyranny, famin, sickness and even death" ARE bad. And "bad" means "not in God's will".

keep in mind God is fully and completely in the business of bringing down empires and governments. always has, always will....until He returns, he is in the business of using men to topple wicked goverments and empires. It is all over the Bible. Except in the case of Sodam and Gomohhra where He directly destroyed a government, he normally uses human beings to conquer and topple wicked rulers. God does not change. If He did it 10,000 years ago, He does it today, and I believe that the ROman empire fell due to its unbelievable wickedness and brutal persecutions against people.

[Acriku]

So now Bush is charged by God to fight Saddam? ::)

[TMA_1]

First of all, you mentioned barely any verses. I mentioned many. IF you actually study the word like I have, you will notice that slavery is against the free will but not condemned. God is not in the "making the world a better place" business. It is satan's world and from the bible I quote "satan is the god (notice small G) of this earth". I do know a heck of a lot of the word. You are going off the path of the bible by adding your own ideas to it. This is called legalism and is strictly against the word. "Those who add to the word of GOd, God will add to them all the plagues in the bible." You gave no evidance of going out of context. The verses were talking about how christians should live. It is there black and white. You are just too inmeshed with the world system. You feel it is your duty to make the Word comfortable to unbelievers and yourself. Quote the word for me. You have not shot down my observations by other bible scripture. If I took the word out of context, I would have given you verses that had to do with something totally different. A bondservant in the ancient world usually wasent an indentured servant. Also, slavery in the age of the classical roman empire was completely different than the slavery we equate with. Slavery was much less barbaric than slavery is now days. There was very little racism, slaves were looked upon as equals, that though it was a rift in class system, they were equal human beings. Many times, a master would adopt his slave into a son or daughter. You dont seem to know biblical history. I have studied this stuff in the actual languages from targum, septugent, talmud, early new testament writings. My dad supplied me with this information and taught me the basics of the important languages to know. Chaldean, hebrew, very little persian, some forms of greek. I dont know the languages like the back of my hand at all. That is why I have my own lexicons, analyticals and so on. I study this stuff very much and know more than many. I can boast here because I boast for christs word. You need to take off the veil of worldliness. God is not in the business of making satans world a better place. We lost the world when adam and eve fell from grace. Christ will take it back again. Till then, it is not in our hands to try to make social problems better. We are to pray, study the word, and have fellowship with believers. We all fail, but that is what we are supposed to do. If this is done, then we can individually do the Lord's work which is helping believer and unbeliever alike. It isnt done on a national scale though, it is done individually and in private for the lord's eyes alone to see. Christ said that we should pray and give in private and give individually and in private. "When you do something for the lord, dont do it for all to see like the pharasees do." Good works are meaningless if done without God. If you do something that goes against the word, which you are doing, then "your works are as filthy rags".

[Gobalopper]

TMA the world is a completely different place compared to what happened during biblical times. Today we have democracy which allows everyone to be involved in government.

War is bad, I think everyone can agree on that. But countries also have the right to defend themselves and their allies something you even admit. Defense is one of the biggest reasons the US/UK/etc gives for attacking Iraq. They threaten one of the biggest allies the US has, Israel, on a daily basis. They also sponsor terrorists who would be more then willing to set off a nuclear bomb killing millions of people. I support the war because I think it is being done in defense not because I think Saddam is evil or that the people of Iraq are slaves. I can't speak for emprworm but I think he would agree, the fact that Saddam is a dictator is just another reason but is certainly not the deciding factor.

[TMA_1]

The bible cant change with the time Gob. We also arent a true democracy. We are more a republic, which is completely different. Christ taught to individually work through him. Not as a collective or a nation. People who say this is a christian nation are full of it. No nation accept for the jews had a true theocracy or had a mass of believers, even the jews at many times failed, as we all do. We participate in our government but only so much as we need to. Any more is just another part of becoming worldly. This is as a christian. Until israel is assulted once again by iraq, do we have the moral grounds to attack. If we attack prematurely, than we are just fighting on assumption, even if it is pretty obvious they are going to attack. The thoughts that most people have today in the western world arent correct biblically. Unbelievers arent tied to a christian system and so I am not urging them to do anything. They are free and I totally respect that. You are a christian though jesse. The word of God cannot change with the times. One single alteration in the bible compremises the whole thing. Just as one little virus can inject it's dna or rna into a cell and create millions and then billions of more virus'. Evil starts with one little beginning. This war is governmental matter. But spiritually, I see wrong in it. I cannot stop it and wont petition or go on marches, but I will object personally. You read the verses I pointed out and they are very relavent to the situation. Unlike what empr said, I did not take them out of context.lol geesh. You let your own opinions decide on what the bible says. times change, but remember what the book isaiah said. "The grass withers and the flower fades, but the word of our lord stands forever."

War is necissary, but isnt used like america is using it. Though bush says that this is a "last resort", he has not been patient enough to let them make the first strike. Once they do, than I am all for attacking saddam. Once he makes his first big strike against an ally. We have complete spiritual immunity. Unlike the gulf war, where we knew that an ally was being attacked and we attacked in return for it, this is a war based on assumptions. Even if those assumptions are almost exact, that doesnt make it right.

[emprworm]

Paul broke the law of man. So did peter. So did Jesus.

you cannot use those verses about submitting to leaders as absolute because then you make Jesus into a criminal.

This is what bad hermeneutics. Christianity is not a lassie faire religion. Not even close. That would be Buddhism. That would be the doctrine of Karmic law. lassie faire is simply impossible

I cited plenty of verses, I just didn't give the references.

#1 Matt 28 tells explicitly that CHristianity is all about interferring with other nations politics and traditions (surely you realize that bringing Christianity to a Muslim nation is a massive political interferrence...right?)

#2. You cannot use the examples of indentured servants as justification why we should not seek freedom from oppressed slaves. They are not the same thing. Indentured servants became that way due to their own actions. A slave in Iraq or in 18th century US was born that way. Any righteouss person would seek their freedom at all costs!

#3. God is in the business of tearing down wicked nations...and nearly every time he does, he uses humans to destroy and conquer them. See: Judges for the city of Jerico. Also: babylon, philistines.

And hows this verse for you: new testament. Hebrews 11 lists the "Heroes of the Faith." I wonder what emotions go through you as you read this:

And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed {acts of} righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

these men were holy by God because they "conquered kingdoms"...."mighty in war"...."put foreign armies to flight".....

AND....God does not change. God did it in the Old testament, and he does it in the New Testament. Do you not think it was God who brought down corrupt Rome? I do. And God often works through man to bring down evil empires. Bringing down Nazi Germany was a righteouss act! It was not unholy. It was morally necessary and I believe fully approved of by God. Don't think God is to be taken lightly...he will utterly destroy a wicked nation, even in new testament times He can. And he often uses humans who live outside the nation to do it (as shown throughout the Bible) He can do whatever He wants and did not change at all from Old-->New testament. He is exactly the same. God is not laisse faire!!!!

#4. What you do to the "least of these" (Matt 5) will determine your commitment to the Gospel. A free man living in the USA with all its luxuries and pleasentries has even more of an obligation to the least of these. And I can tell you that the least of these is not in the USA. Once God brings down Hussein (and I believe this is a righteouss act), then the Gospel will be freely brought to the region, and many souls will be saved and freed from the slavery of darkness (as well as slavery of tyrranical oppression). This is what I believe. Of course, no one else needs to believe it, not even TMA. It is simply my personal belief.

[Gobalopper]

I never said it did change, I said the world has changed. You say it is bad to become involved in politics yet there are many Christians who are actively involved in governing the country, are they all wrong? The people can elect whoever they want and even run themselves, this never happened during the time of the Bible.

We are fighting a war against Islamic terrorists a war that is different then any previous war because these people are willing to do anything to kill any person who is not a good muslim. This war is not like in the past where you had to invade a country to attack it, things have changed.

We have been waiting 12 years for Iraq to disarm, how is that being impatient? Back in October people said Bush was being impatient, 6 months later they are still saying the same thing. You say to trust your government yet you don't seem to trust the evidence they have presented.

[TMA_1]

first of all, christ did not break any laws. The scribes and pharasees bent the rules in order to charge jesus with proclaiming himself king, and therefore going against roman law.

ALso, you mention old testament men that took down evil nations. You are dealing with israel which was its own power ruled by God. We christians are not an individual nation and we dont follow the old testament codes. Christ said that he made a new covenant. This covenant is followed and not the old testament one. This means that we are to be subserviant. The verse you pointed out says that we are to preach to all nations. This is the only thing we are to do if made illegal. We submit everything to the governments. the only time we can break the law is if they wont allow us to study the word or pray or preach the gospel. Even then, it is not our place to collectively attack the system. We just study and preach and pray anyway. That is it. You are using pure emotion and heresay. Nothing of the word of God. Even when you do use it, you are using it in the wrong way. You need to study it a bit more closely.

The mention in hebrews is talking about how they had faith, but we have something even greater than them and that makes us in a higher position. It doesnt have anything to do with us fighting. Bondservants arent indentured servants in the place I was showing. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there.lol You dont even know how roman slavery worked. Please dont argue about this if you dont have a leg to stand on. It is just frustrating to see you fight abouts omething you dont understand. Paul said "our mind is the battlefield". We dont fight wars like those in the old testament did. They were under a completely different contract. America is our government. It is not ruled by God, only manipulated how he wants it to work. Who said that God is working for us? He uses evil nations to destroy other evil nations. Maybe we are the next target. liberty is a dangerous thing. It brings ignorance and decadence. You have only used verses in the bible out of misunderstanding. please study it closely.

[emprworm]

first of all, christ did not break any laws. The scribes and pharasees bent the rules in order to charge jesus with proclaiming himself king, and therefore going against roman law.

I'll give you this point. However, the apostles did break Roman law. Every Christian that got mauled in the Colleseium was a political and religious criminal, including all the apostles who were executed (except John who died a natural death)

ALso, you mention old testament men that took down evil nations. You are dealing with israel which was its own power ruled by God.

uh Isreal was often not ruled by God. He allowed it to be ruled by men in the book of Judges. And we are talking about Israel even today. Did you forget what Saddam did to Israel in 1991? And it doesn't matter. God takes out wicked nations- relationship with Israel is not required. God can do what he wants. And he does indeed use humans to do this (though he doesn't have too, however we know that He does).

We christians are not an individual nation and we dont follow the old testament codes.

But America is a nation. And it is God that took out wicked nations (sometimes) through men- it had nothing to do with an old testament "code". God is the same.

Christ said that he made a new covenant. This covenant is followed and not the old testament one.

moral law has nothing to do with the old or new covenant. Good and evil was already defined eternally prior to the covenants.

This means that we are to be subserviant.

no it doesn't. Paul was not subserviant. He disobeyed rulers and kings. He took the Gospel all the way to spain...disrupting their culture and their politics, wreaking haavoc in the Roman empire and breaking direct commands of government rulers. He was far from subserviant.

The verse you pointed out says that we are to preach to all nations. This is the only thing we are to do if made illegal.

lol! i don't think anyone has preached the gospel in Iraq for 15 years. You cant do it...period. This is why I believe it is righteouss indeed for Saddam to be taken out. You will meet people in Heaven as a result of this righteouss deed. When freedom comes to the land, God's word will follow. God wants His word to penetrate Iraq. That will not happen until God removes the Pharoah. And believe you me, nothing can stop God if He wants to remove the Pharoah. He could do it Himself...OR...he could use another nation to do it. Looks like He is using another nation to do it.

the only time we can break the law is if they wont allow us to study the word or pray or preach the gospel.

totally disagree. remember Rahab? She broke the law to protect two men. It had nothing to do with preaching. She was listed in the Hall of Faith because of it. And now we will protect the innocent in Iraq as well.

Even then, it is not our place to collectively attack the system.

of course it is. Christianity overthrew Rome because of its massive numbers. It spread, out of control, like wildfire. That is a massive attack on the Roman system. A HUGE political attack of a supreme scale. Spiritual warfare my man. Taking Christianity to a Muslim nation is far worse of an interferrence politically then any economic thing you could ever do.

We just study and preach and pray anyway. That is it.

easy for you to do: you are already converted. No one in Iraq knows anything about it. But they will....when Saddam is removed. THen you will have new brothers and sisters. Will you rejoice?

You are using pure emotion and heresay. Nothing of the word of God. Even when you do use it, you are using it in the wrong way. You need to study it a bit more closely.

How?

"And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed {acts of} righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. "

I'm only quoting it. I'm not even using it here. It simply states that these men had conquered...became mighty in war....put armies to flight...and did it all by faith. THey are commendable before God. God does not change.

Bondservants arent indentured servants in the place I was showing. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there.

so how do you feel about the blacks rising up against slavery? Approved of by God? Shunned by God? You tell me.

How do you feel about the US helping to free Germany and millions of Jews? Approved of by God? Shunned by God? You tell me.

You dont even know how roman slavery worked. Please dont argue about this if you dont have a leg to stand on.

alllllllllll about Roman slavery- more than I would even want to know is right here:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslavent.html

We dont fight wars like those in the old testament did. They were under a completely different contract.

of course not, but God still does. He doesn't change. Our rules changed...His did not. He used nations to bring down nations thousands of years ago, the rules He plays by will still be the same today. The church is not to bring down a nation, agreed. But a nation most certainly will. None of your verses apply to a nation...they apply only to individual believers. Whether you like it or not, Iraq is going to fall...and the Gospel will be preached in Iraq, and people will become believers. Your spiritual family is about to grow larger. WIll you rejoice?

[Acriku]

easy for you to do: you are already converted. No one in Iraq knows anything about it. But they will....when Saddam is removed. THen you will have new brothers and sisters. Will you rejoice?

Don't tell me you, or someone else, are thinking of being a missionary to take advantage of the Iraqi's new situation and convert them? That's disgusting.