World Domination

[Acriku]

Non sequitor edric, trying to achieve something that cannot be achieved does not mean that it will make things better. It can make things even worse, but what part of communism that we can achieve will make things better?

[Caid Ivik]

But why would you want the world, where you don't have to think over something better? Imagine that moral degradation. In capitalist world you have to fight for your place, and there is still time for mamone, so why it wouldn't be in utopical socialism, where you have your place given?

[Acriku]

Because economy thrives on competition, and anybody without the incentive to work hard getting the same amount of money if they should work hard would just make it even worse, and that person wouldn't be alone.

[Edric O]

*bangs head against wall*

PLEASE read some marxist authors if you want to understand what we are all about... The problem of incentive has been discussed over and over again, and there are hundreds of possible solutions.

To put it simply, stepping over bodies and pushing people into poverty so you can be rich isn't the only possible incentive in this world...

Also, Acriku, you misunderstood what I said. "Trying to achieve something that cannot be achieved" is NOT it. What I meant was that we should take an ideal utopia, see why it can't be achieved, and tweak it a bit in order to turn it into something less perfect that CAN be achieved.

From there we could eventually move even closer to the ideal utopia. And so on, although we will most likely never reach it. (but who knows?)

[Caid Ivik]

Do you think I don't know what is that utopia trying? It would create psychically passive world. Yes, I've read only Marx, Lenin and Kim Ir-Sen, which you consider as "heretics", but I know what all that comedy is about. About solving laziness of mind.

[Edric O]

Co-operation can be just as powerful a driving force (if not more so) than competition. All we need to achieve that are properly educated people, who look beyond their own selfish greed.

And Marx isn't a "heretic"... hell, he created the whole ideology! Why do you think it's called marxism?

[Acriku]

Look beyond their selfish greed... yeah that's a good idea ;)

Anyways, it still does not follow, you can try to get closer to that utopia, but in what ways? What parts would you tweak and to what? Would that be possible, and if so would it be beneficial in the real world?

[Dude_Doc]

Yes, of course true communism is an utopia. I can even imagine myself in such a society. The thing is, I don't think people are ready yet. It isn't time for communism now. We all have our selfish needs, I want, you want, this is mine, that is yours etc. We all want to achieve our goals, not other unknown peoples goals. The, if anything else, really best thing we can do, is to create one great communist territory, and one great "capitalist"/democracy territory. But that is also nearly impossible to create in the worlds present condition...

"Hmm, just when I thought it was all getting silly. I actually had a conversation with someone last night aboutt he Illuminati and Bush, it was quite entertaining. *whispers conspiratolly* There is no Illuminati...really...there isn't...would I ever attempt to mislead you for my personal gain in their eyes? Of course you haven't gone as far as the girl last night did, sure Bush was in the league with bin Laden."

Not because I believe in the Illuminati, but, do you have proof? And if you have you'd probably be dead or hunted now... :P

No, the Illuminati isn't some random "aliens own all" organization who wants to take over the world. They have been around since the 17th century, just look for "Adam Weihsaupt", he created the Illuminati then, with his own goal. I think his society lasted for 20 years before exposed and executed. Even at that time, he knew that he would not live to the day the world would be officially controlled by the Illuminati. Then comes the theories that the Illuminati still existed. And one can wonder where such claims comes from... Anyways, Illuminati have the smartest, the richest and most powerful men on Earth. They have gathered power around them, teached them their own religion (I think it was sun god (Ra), Illuminism, Luciferism and Freemasonry like thing mixed together). Their goal is of course to have total control of society. Of course, they took Marxs teachings into their own hands and decided that a communist/facist like rule suited everyone the best. After all, the Slaves doesn't choose their Master.

Anyways, to make them invisibe, they took advantage of other societies (Freemasonry, Knights Templar, Bildenberg Group etc), and disinformation. Like they said, the devil's best trick was to make people believe he didn't exist. The same goes for Illuminati, they fool around people, with books, movies and games. People would of course not believe in the Illuminati if they knew it was only a lie. A lie that was true...

Anyways, these are approximately all the facts pressed into one mess :P. And to clarify once more what I do believe:

1. I do not believe in the Illuminati, but, I would not be surprised if I somehow found out that they exist.

2. Marx's vision is good, Illuminati's vision is evil.

3. Thank You and welcome.

[Gobalopper]

True communism won't work because people aren't perfect.

[Edric O]

Yes. Read what I said above. :)

[Caid Ivik]

Co-operation can be just as powerful a driving force (if not more so) than competition. All we need to achieve that are properly educated people, who look beyond their own selfish greed.

And Marx isn't a "heretic"... hell, he created the whole ideology! Why do you think it's called marxism?

You cannot educate people to be good. But if everyone will do what cooperator wants from him, then what will ensure some differentiation, or progress? To ensure quality, you must have competition. That's why whole communism is unrealistic. Also you stay with Marx? Oppression of intelligence was strategic part of his way. I even can't believe how jewish brain could create such thing.

[Anathema]

Jewish brains are different then other brains?

If you look at the period during Stalin, you see that the people did work very hard to achieve a better way of life for their off spring. The idealism only died down with the next generation who saw that they had been fooled al along, as most of the money went to arms and space.

[Dude_Doc]

Yes. In order for communism to work, all people in a communist society MUST be willing to work and live equaly, to give money to everyone etc. Communism is not about space or arms, killing or brainwashing other countries. It is a one society where everyone is equal and where everyone consiously knows that what they do serves everyone, not one leader or a government. Of course, there must be someone who decides what to do with the money (except equalize them amongst the people). If you don't like it, fine, no one can force you, and you'd probably live better in another society (democracy etc...). So basically, I think it could work in small countries, like North Korea, Cuba, Malta etc.

[Edric O]

To clear up any confusion or blatantly wrong ideas about communism (looking at you Caid Ivik), you should read the Communist Manifesto.

Also, Leon Trotsky (an important remember of the 1917 october revolution) wrote a book in the 1930's showing in detail why Stalinism was NOT communism. This was in the 1930's! Stalin's fraud was obvious to all true communists... You can read Trotsky's book here:

The Revolution Betrayed

[Acriku]

Edric, there will never be a true communist state. I mean come on, the manifesto is only 47 pages, it can't go over every problem and issue it may have that conflicts its "hope" to the workers.

[Edric O]

The manifesto is only a brief outline of communism - and that's why it's called a manifesto. I could post a link to some huge work who goes into every minute detail, but which of the people in here would take the time to read it? ;)

It is my belief that, first and foremost, any working social system is shaped by the people. We cannot predict every possible problem, and we cannot make a real society on paper. True communism is the theory on paper. It's like a perfect model in physics. When you put it into practice, there will be small deviations and errors. However, overall, the model will work as planned... even though it won't be perfect, it will be close.

Unless, of course, someone deliberately tampers with it and ruins the whole thing. Which is exactly what Stalin did. Marx's greatest mistake was not providing his system with a safety valve. That is what we must do now.

[Acriku]

You do know that implementing it into as a country's government would require them all to accept communism, and to accept not ever being rich in their lives.

[Edric O]

That depends on your definition of "rich"... if rich means having more things for yourself than other people do, then yes. They will never be rich.

But if "rich" is an absolute value, then they will one day be rich, along with everyone else.

Also, I don't see why everyone would need to accept the system. Democratic opposition is always welcome. There will be laws preventing them from ruining everything for the rest of us, but they can voice their opinions at their leisure and even achieve power if they gain enough popular support.

[Acriku]

The people populating the now communist country I meant. Unless you're open to rebellions and revolts.

And rich by the fact that they worked hard for it, they earned it, they damned well do what they want with it, and it's theirs, no one else's.

[Edric O]

Rebellions and revolts? If the people don't want the new government, it has no business being there in the first place. If they do want it, there will be no rebellions and revolts. (not supported by the majority, as least - in which case we will deal with them the same way any democratic country does)

And rich by the fact that they worked hard for it, they earned it, they damned well do what they want with it, and it's theirs, no one else's.

That would qualify as the selfish greed we were trying to get rid of... but only due to the semantics. The basic idea is sound, and it is a very important part of communism: People who work hard will always be better off than those who slack off.

You will always have the right to enjoy the fruits of your labour.

[Acriku]

That's what I mean, you must have the people's support for communism, and people don't seem to like it nowadays, which is another reason why it won't happen anytime soon, if ever.

How would communism reward the hard workers and not the slackers? I'd be interested to know how, because the communism in my mind does not do either.

[Caid Ivik]

To clear up any confusion or blatantly wrong ideas about communism (looking at you Caid Ivik), you should read the Communist Manifesto.

Also, Leon Trotsky (an important remember of the 1917 october revolution) wrote a book in the 1930's showing in detail why Stalinism was NOT communism. This was in the 1930's! Stalin's fraud was obvious to all true communists... You can read Trotsky's book here:

The Revolution Betrayed

Trockij was an evil man comparable to Stalin. Just he was more precisious, so better comparament is to Heinrich Himmler. System of GuLags is his idea. He was killed by cooperation of NKVD and gestapo, due to he was a native Jew. So, if Trockij is your ideal communist, then please don't tell me it's best political way. Communism is based on governments manipulations - that's undoubtable fact and if you have read it, you should know it too.

[Dude_Doc]

I don't think there will ever be any communist country that works, because many people do not trust each other. Getting each person from a population of one million to trust every 999 999 other persons is hard if not impossible. When people trust each other, when I can trust someone I've just known for 2 minutes with my life, that is what it must take to get the government. When the people ruling it really listens to what the people need, what "goal" the country should reach, how to make everyone of the population happy, then we talk true communism. Hell, I don't even trust some of my neighbours, so you can imagine the steps to be taken...

[Caid Ivik]

Maybe if there will be a cloned nation it should work. But you still can't clone souls...

[Edric O]

Communism is based on governments manipulations - that's undoubtable fact and if you have read it, you should know it too.

Why do I get the feeling I'm arguing against a wall here...?

Caid, just _READ_ the damn things, will you? You're talking nonsense.