Cloned Baby Supposedly Born

[Anathema]

Edited: I apparently messed up this post

What the hell was that? A story of what you would've done? Somehow I don't think you would have time to think of a scenario of getting out while your pissing your pants and hoping not to get shot. And I read in a different forum that the girl didn't say anything, that the media put in the fact that she had said "yes" a couple weeks after the incident, for ratings or whatever the motive was. Question everything. Especially the media.

I don't know of such an incident. Do you know an internet source?

[Edric O]

Errr, what just happened? With Earthnuker's post, I mean. ??? Well, getting back to the topic at hand...

Why shouldn't I? That is what you have always done. In the Mother Theresa thread you compared all Atheists to Stalin.

Yes, I did that AFTER you brought up the inquisition and the crusades and started to judge all Christians according to them.

So, using the logic "innocent until proven guilty" there is no evidence to neither believe in your perception of a God, therefore he does not exist.

We don't have the same definition of "proof" when it comes to God, Ace. I've got plenty of proof (not empirical, I admit that - it's just as a result of my logical reasoning) that you would never accept as such.

In the end it is mostly a matter of faith, yes. So is that somehow bad? Am I somehow inferior to you because I have faith in something?

Forgive me, but I was not aware you had been outside the universe. Maybe I'll leave the universe on my next vacation and see for myself. C'mon, have you even SEEN where the universe ends? Do you no its boundaries? We know almost nothing about other galaxies, let alone the universe. Right now all we have is a bunch of wild, unproven theories.

You haven't been to Mars, either. But that doesn't mean you can't know anything about it.

The theory that supports what I said is the Big Bang theory. Do you consider THAT to be wild and unproven? Then how did the universe come into existence, mr. atheist?

Yeah for CHRISTIANS ONLY. Rare is it that any religous organization will do those things for any non-Christian without trying to convert them. In fact, I genuinely can't name one.

So let me get this straight: rather than helping Christians, they shouldn't be helping ANYONE?

But you already admitted yourself that there are many such organizations who help non-Christians. And many have been created specifically for the purpose of helping non-Christians. Yes, they also try to convert them while they're at it. So what's wrong with that?

I said the CHURCH. The Pope says it himself. And, well, if you actually don't know organized Church's position on contraception, you might want to get a catscan.

"Organized Church"? Which one would that be? The Orthodox Church is organized. It has some 200 million adherents worldwide. And it says NOTHING about contraception. Neither do the vast majority of Protestant Churches (and they're organized too, you know).

Perhaps you mean the CATHOLIC Church. That's different. But the Pope isn't God. I personally think he's a great man and I admire him for everything he has done for world peace and religious tolerance. He has always called for all humans to be brothers and sisters... But he is only human, Ace. He makes mistakes. Like any human, he is wrong about certain things. Give the guy a break. Could you do a better job? While being crippled by Parkinson's disease? I'm sure I couldn't.

It's not a communist takeover kind of world domination. The point was to create something bigger than yourself. And boy oh boy, was it ever successful.

"So in 300 years, we take over the Roman Empire. In 1000 years, we take over Europe. And in 1800 years, the whole world!! Muahahahahahaha!!" ::)

That's what I think about when I hear "world domination". Now please explain to me how creating something bigger than yourself has anything to do with world domination... They were only trying to serve God, as Jesus had taught them. What does that have to do with taking over the world??

Rage? Are you serious? Your own bias has made you completely blind. Name ONE incident in this thread in which I was "raging". I gave my honest analysis of certain things, told my opinions straight-up. Dogmatic hate? LOL! Obviously you can't handle what I have to say. I have hate? LOL. I've been completely reasonable.

"Raging hate" = very powerful hate

You haven't been "raging", you have only been extremely hateful. You don't think so? Let's see...

- you call all Christians willing to die for God insane

- you accuse us of trying to take over the world

- you call my beliefs "stupid", "dumb", etc.

- you say Christian beliefs fly in the face of everything logical and rational

- you say the Christian idea of God sounds like a fairy tale

- you say Christianity serves only to divide people and increase the ranks of those who believe

- you call me a manipulated puppet

...and that was all just from ONE post! (Reply #76 on: January 02, 2003, 23:06:29)

Nope, no hate there at all. ::)

What about the Muslim terrorists that blow themselves up on SCHOOLBUSES full of children? What do you call them? HEROES? HONOURBLE? Bah, that's a disgrace.

Ah, so now the Christian martyrs who were persecuted and killed for the simple fact that they were Christians are no different from Muslim suicide bombers?? And you say I have a warped view of the world...

So, are you saying you have no respect whatsoever for one of your best friends, Nema Fakei?

Sneezer is right. I said I have no respect for atheism. I deliberately avoided saying "atheists", because that is not true. There are many atheists whom I respect, Nema included. You're just not one of them.What I meant was that I have no respect for atheism as a whole, and for what it stands for.

Clearly there can only be one god, one religion. Thousands of years of "Holy wars" have proven that.

So what do you suggest? An atheist holy war to cleanse the world of religion? ::)

And now we get to the most interesting part... your example of the girl in the Columbine massacre...

Isn't the answer obvious? I honestly can't think of a better way to die. I already told you what I live for. God. Life. Humanity. In this case, for whatever reason, God would require me to die. Therefore I would die. There can be only one answer to that question: "Yes".

Of course, I would prefer to say something more worthwhile, but given the situation, I don't think I'd be able to say anything other than a simple "yes".

I would never be able to live with myself otherwise.

[Anathema]

Errr ???

I have no idea what happened to my post. I copied part of Acrikus post, but something must have gone wrong, I don't know. I'll edit.

I would also like to point out that atheism is a collective noun. Christians share values with eachother, but atheists don't. There are atheists who think religion should be eradicated, they're atheists alright, but I'm not like them.

[Cyborg]

Excuse me for not reading the whole topic before I post. :-[

Is it wrong to not believe? I have never believed in god and will never, ever do it.

And I don't see the point in it either.

This "god" don't punish me for not believing in him. In fact, the number of christian believers(in Norway it is, but I think it is sinking all over the world) is sinking. God doesn't do anything to be believed in, so why not believe in mahdi? or aliens?

Say I believed in frodo in the lord of the rings, you would think of me as a bit weird. The fact is that I don't, but you couldn't prove that he didn't exist either.

I cannot prove that there is no god and therefore I don't start conversations about that, and those who believe in god can't prove that he does exist, so why talk about it?

We were talking about clones in the first place.

And my oppinion is:

It is prefectly ok to fix dna to prevent illness and to eradicate diseases that we can't handle today, but making clones of humans instead of adopting is just crazy.

Also, to test cloning on animals is not better than doing it on humans. Why is it extremely bad to test something on a human and perfectly ok to test something on apes?

Apes think and feel pain just as we do.

Sorry if my reply didn't fit the last post, I were replying to this whole topic.

[Edric O]

Is it wrong to not believe? I have never believed in god and will never, ever do it.

And I don't see the point in it either.

This "god" don't punish me for not believing in him. In fact, the number of christian believers(in Norway it is, but I think it is sinking all over the world) is sinking. God doesn't do anything to be believed in, so why not believe in mahdi? or aliens?

That's because our God is a God of love, not fear.

Are you saying that you don't believe simply because He doesn't force you to? So the only God worth believing in is an evil God that forces you to obey? ::)

You're right about one thing, though: the number of Christians worldwide is going down. And that, along with capitalism, is one of the two things that I wish to dedicate my life to fight against.

[VigilVirus]

Do not force your religion upon others, Edric. That is low and disgraceful. We do not know which religion is right, and this advertisement of Christianity as the true and right religion is sickening to me even though I am a christian myself.

Everyone has a right to believe in what they want to believe and not what someone else wants them to believe.

[Edric O]

Forcing...? Advertisment...? What the...?? ???

What on Earth are you talking about?

[VigilVirus]

You're right about one thing, though: the number of Christians worldwide is going down. And that, along with capitalism, is one of the two things that I wish to dedicate my life to fight against

This. Dedicating your life to fight against atheism and other religions for the sake of christianity.

[emprworm]

Then how did the universe come into existence, mr. atheist?

An excellent question, Edric. There are three....and only three....possible answers. Please note that only one must be true while the other two are false.

1. The universe began to exist, and was externally caused.

2. The universe began to exist, and caused (or effected) itself.

3. The universe has always existed infinitely in the past.

Edric, don't let these atheists try to trick you or toss out lots of complicated sounding jargon. ALL of those options require faith. In fact, option 2- the position held by most atheists, is more out of line with physics then option 1, the view that you and I hold. Option 2 violates the principle of causality, which is the fundamental principle upon which all practical science is based. You and I are actually in a more rational position then our atheists friends who are willing to deny the principle of causality to defend option 2, while simultaneously declaring option 1- which upholds all laws of science- as irrational.

[Cyborg]

That's because our God is a God of love, not fear.

Are you saying that you don't believe simply because He doesn't force you to? So the only God worth believing in is an evil God that forces you to obey? ::)

You're right about one thing, though: the number of Christians worldwide is going down. And that, along with capitalism, is one of the two things that I wish to dedicate my life to fight against.

God isn't a God of love, he hasn't been nor will never be. He is trying his best to be fair, although he doesn't always succeed in that. I haven't read much of the bible, so please don't ask me to refer to the bible.

You see, the bible is a really funny book. It's written metaforically, which makes it not only one book, but countless books if you know what I mean.

Read through the eyes of a non-believer, it's not more than a fairy tale without the "once upon a time" start and the "and they lived happily ever after" end in it. But read through a believers eyes it's a very important book filled with facts and the book alone make them continue their belief.

What is funny with the bible is that in it you can read about god who take action for even small things, but he doesn't take any action now anymore.

Why did he just stop? If I'm not wrong, there's an answer to that question in the bible, but the bible is so long that I don't want to read it just to get that answer. Edric, you are a christian, why don't you answer that.

Do not force your religion upon others, Edric. That is low and disgraceful. We do not know which religion is right, and this advertisement of Christianity as the true and right religion is sickening to me even though I am a christian myself.

Vigil. Take it easy. Edric came with some very good points and it's not to force any religion upon me just to speak for his religion.

I respect Edric and I will never believe in god no matter how much anyone talks about it.

[emprworm]

Yes, you are right, Cyborg, you indeed do not know much about the Bible.

CYBORG

it's not more than a fairy tale without the "once upon a time" start and the "and they lived happily ever after" end in it. But read through a believers eyes it's a very important book filled with facts and the book alone make them continue their belief.

Then why is it that when read through the eyes of an archaeologist or historian, we have the most accurate record of verifiable antiquity on this planet? Why does the Smithsonian institution, the most credible historical institution on earth officially validate the Bible and use it as an historical document? Just wondering.

[VigilVirus]

The bible has no proof just like anything else that deals with creation or evolution. People just accept it as part of their religion. Blind faith if you will, but it's the best we can do.

[emprworm]

The bible has no proof just like anything else that deals with creation or evolution.

yes, this is true. including science textbooks. none of them have proof of evolution or creation. its all faith. all of it- including the evolutionists.

[Cyborg]

Then why is it that when read through the eyes of an archaeologist or historian, we have the most accurate record of verifiable antiquity on this planet? Why does the Smithsonian institution, the most credible historical institution on earth officially validate the Bible and use it as an historical document? Just wondering.

I don't know everything. You should know the answer better than I do.

And I am not wrong when thinking of the bible as a fairy tale. The bible is thinked of as many different things. As you said, the smithsonian institution uses it as a historical document, and who knows someone might use it as a newspaper...

Why people use the bible as a historical document may be because it has been written BY the time that all this should've happened. I do not deny that anything in the bible has happened, but I think of it as a bit strange that nothing happens now anymore. If you have read the bible, you might now the answer, emprworm?

[emprworm]

And I am not wrong when thinking of the bible as a fairy tale.

most fairy tales talk about imaginary places.

When the Bible spoke of the Hittite civilization in Genesis, for example, many atheists at the turn of the 20th century like you were mocking the Bible saying things like

"Ha! Your Bible is wrong. There was no such thing as the "Hittites" Your Bible talks about this huge, gigantic civilization that never existed. Where is the evidence for it? Ha ha, stupid Bible."

Until, of course, the city was discovered in 1906 in Turkey and excavated by the middle of the century, being found exactly as the Bible described it.

Fairy tales usually do not describe actual historical places and real people that actually existed.

If you want a fairy tale, read the book of Mormon. It describes dozens of giant cities in North America- none of which have been discovered, let alone one shred of evidence ever dug up.

[Cyborg]

When the Bible spoke of the Hittite civilization in Genesis, for example, many atheists at the turn of the 20th century like you were mocking the Bible saying things like

"Ha! Your Bible is wrong. There was no such thing as the "Hittites" Your Bible talks about this huge, gigantic civilization that never existed. Where is the evidence for it? Ha ha, stupid Bible."

Until, of course, the city was discovered in 1906 in Turkey and excavated by the middle of the century, being found exactly as the Bible described it.

Fairy tales usually do not describe actual historical places and real people that actually existed.

If you want a fairy tale, read the book of Mormon. It describes dozens of giant cities in North America- none of which have been discovered, let alone one shred of evidence ever dug up.

Have I been mocking the bible? ::)

I did NOT say that anything in it was not true, Did I?

I hven't even said that god doesn't exist!

What I don't have any proof to deny, I don't deny. It's that easy.

I don't talk bad about you either.

And btw, most fairytales that I've read(i don't read much, because I don't like to read. Please don't use that against me, eprworm I like to read magazines, though) takes place on earth and some of them takes place at real locations.

[Edric O]

Yes, Emprworm, I agree. You have presented that point many times before, and you never got a logical reply from an atheist...

Vigil, I can dedicate my life to anything I choose. Frankly, it's none of your business to tell me what I should or shouldn't do. I don't intend to force anything upon anyone, so your comment is completely unjustified.

Cyborg:

At last, I can have a peaceful argument in this topic. :)

Well, I say that the Christian God is a God of love because the two most important things He told us to do are about love:

And one of the scribes came, and hearing their argument together, and seeing that he had given them a good answer, put the question to him, Which law is the first of all?

Jesus said in answer, The first is, Give ear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;

And you are to have love for the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

The second is this, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself. There is no other law greater than these.

- Mark 12:28-31

..."there is no law greater than these"... Love for God and love for your fellow man are the two most important commandments of Christianity.

Too bad so many Christians do things that go directly against this, which is the core of our beliefs... But we are only human, and all humans are sinners.

What is funny with the bible is that in it you can read about god who take action for even small things, but he doesn't take any action now anymore.

Why did he just stop? If I'm not wrong, there's an answer to that question in the bible, but the bible is so long that I don't want to read it just to get that answer. Edric, you are a christian, why don't you answer that.

God didn't stop completely. He is helping us with the little things even now, but no one writes them down any more.

The one thing that He did stop doing are the large miracles. He said He would. Jesus said He was the Messiah, and warned us that no more prophets would come after Him. He was the last, and no more large miracles will be done until the Apocalypse. God didn't say why, but He did say this is how it's going to be from then on. No more prophets and no more miracles.

I think it's probably because we entered a new stage of our history, in which His direct intervention was no longer needed. But that's just my theory.

[Cyborg]

A good argument, Edric. I don't want to discuss with you on that one, because you answered the question I asked you.

However, I have some more questions:

Does god know when the apocalypse will be?

As he is the creator of everything, he must be the one that triggers it. If he don't mean the sun that's growing and in a couple of billion, or atleast hundreds of million years going to make the earth a place where noone can live because of the heat.

I would like more of your good answers. I missed somone in this conversation that didn't peck on the last one that wrote something(which makes the topic more like a battleground between two parts than a topic where the arguments are good.)

[Cyborg]

Another question...

When you have comitted a sin, why do you have to say your sorry to god and not the person you I.E hurt?

god already know you have comitted the sin because he watches everyone.

And another one:

Why did god make the humans supreme? There are no other living organisms on earth that has or will be as technologic as us.

On the other side, it's no real pity in being a cat or a dog wither as they have good lives they too.

[Anathema]

1. The universe began to exist, and was externally caused.

2. The universe began to exist, and caused (or effected) itself.

3. The universe has always existed infinitely in the past.

Edric, don't let these atheists try to trick you or toss out lots of complicated sounding jargon. ALL of those options require faith. In fact, option 2- the position held by most atheists, is more out of line with physics then option 1, the view that you and I hold. Option 2 violates the principle of causality, which is the fundamental principle upon which all practical science is based. You and I are actually in a more rational position then our atheists friends who are willing to deny the principle of causality to defend option 2, while simultaneously declaring option 1- which upholds all laws of science- as irrational.

I won't pretend I'm a physisist, but the big bang theory claims that all matter and energy used to be in a single point, of practicly infinite density and temperature. Time is affected by gravity, slowed down. So in fact before the big bang explosion, there was no time. It always existed, so his doesn't really comply with option 3.

Then again, I'm not some scientist and I don't pretend to be. Unless you are one, stop yelling at people that you found out the truth of it all.

[Edric O]

Yes, of course He knows. In fact, Jesus made it a point that God is the only one who knows when the Apocalypse will be. And He will not tell us, so no human can possibly know...

(That's why I think all those "the end is near" guys are just ridiculous :) )

As for what will actually happen... well, the book of Revelation is very metaphorical... :- The one thing we can be sure of is that it won't be a sudden occurence, but the end of a long chain of events. But beyond that, it's mostly a matter of how you interpret the metaphors.

[Anathema]

Another question: if God created humans to be the only intelligent species in "our" universe, then why did he make it so big? The Earth to the galaxy is like a grain of sand to a desert, as is the galaxy to the universe. I don't see the point :-

[Cyborg]

1. The universe began to exist, and was externally caused.

2. The universe began to exist, and caused (or effected) itself.

3. The universe has always existed infinitely in the past.

Edric, don't let these atheists try to trick you or toss out lots of complicated sounding jargon. ALL of those options require faith. In fact, option 2- the position held by most atheists, is more out of line with physics then option 1, the view that you and I hold. Option 2 violates the principle of causality, which is the fundamental principle upon which all practical science is based. You and I are actually in a more rational position then our atheists friends who are willing to deny the principle of causality to defend option 2, while simultaneously declaring option 1- which upholds all laws of science- as irrational.

If everything must be caused by something, you don't come further by saying god created the universe. How did god appear if everything must have been cause by something?

[Cyborg]

Another question: if God created humans to be the only intelligent species in "our" universe, then why did he make it so big? The Earth to the galaxy is like a grain of sand to a desert, as is the galaxy to the universe. I don't see the point :-

God must obvius get bored sometimes, and why not add something to the universe then? ::)

Well the above answer wasn't what you wanted, but I don't have any other reasonable answer:

I don't know why he apparently only created life on one of the smallest planets in the whole universe and why he made the universe so endlessly big that a human can't even imagine it. Why didn't he make the world so endlessly big?

[Anathema]

Yeah, an expansion pack for the universe :P

There's no mentioning of aliens in the bible, or that the universe is so big.