Spacecraft Engins in Butlerian Jihad *Spoilers*

[Fenris]

Hi there.

I've just finished the Butlerian Jihad and I was wondering what kind of engines they are using for their spaceships? I mean, Space Folding is not invented yet.

[hide]It is quite obvious that Norma Cenva will do that in one of the two forthcoming books.[/hide]

Now, since Einstein we know that it is not possible to travel as fast as light or faster, so... how do they manage to go the hundreds of lightyears between solar systems in mere months? I don't have the technical background, but I'm quite sure that this would take years. I don't know if i missed it in the book, but there are no comments about the type of engines they use, right? How do you think about it?

(Sorry for my bad austrish..errm english:) )

[Acriku]

I believe they just use really really fast engines ;) But seriously, I haven't seen anything about the engines in the book, perhaps the two authors believed it to be plausible to travel that fast already?

[Vanguard3000]

I'm only in about 120 pages (hey, I only got it for X-Mas!), but I haven't seen any info about the engines.

[hide]Although it said the T.M.'s could move faster, because they could withstand it (although, I would guess that the speed at which the humans move at would still be too fast - interstellar travel within months???).[/hide]

[Fenris]

It's quite interesting, I think, because in most SF-Universes I know, you usually have two types of engines.

For example, you have "normal" engines in Star Wars and hyperdrives for long-distance jumps. In Star Trek there ist warp. In Warhammer 40K you also have "normal" engines and Warp. In FH's Dune there is Space-Folding.

But in the Butlerian Jihad, they simply go from system to system, without giving a plausible alternative to "simple" light speed.

(BTW: Not meant as one of those "I have found a flaw, so BTJ sucks"-Threads, but just a topic that caught my attention)

[VigilVirus]

Lol, in the book, it takes months for them to get from one place to another.

[Fenris]

Right, it takes months when it should take years, even at light speed.

The distance between Rossak and Arrakis, for example, is more than 1000 lightyears (I remember to have seen this distance here on the forum)

Now, by definition a lightyear is the distance that light travels in one year...

Alright, even if they travel at lightspeed (which is, following Einstein, not possible), they would need more than 1000 years.

Given the fact that I have read some interesting technical discussions on this forum about armor, weapons, chairdogs, etc. I think that somebody here will come up with a solution for this :)

[Lord J]

It's quite interesting, I think, because in most SF-Universes I know, you usually have two types of engines.

There are also the engines (Alderson? Anderson?) used in the Larry Niven/Jerry Pournell book, "The Mote is God's Eye" - Which allow for instant travel from one star system to another.

[Timenn]

This is one thing about the book which I couldn't explain.

But I accept it otherwise it wouldn't be good for the story.

But maybe they use a kind of warp

[TMA_1]

from what I have read up on, holtzman foldspace engines existed far before the butlerian jihad. They didnt need navigators though that used spice as a phrophetic view of the future to pilot through space safely. They used navigator compuers what would be called illegal after the butlerian jihad to travel through foldspace. I dont know what brian and kevin did though in the butler jihad though.

[Timenn]

No they used it after the Holtzman field was discovered. But they hadn't Navigators then. They came a century later, around 0 B.G.

[TMA_1]

I am a DE fan... so I am kinda sceptical of Brian and Kevin's ideas.lol that is how it goes in the DE.

[Andrew]

I am a DE fan... so I am kinda sceptical of Brian and Kevin's ideas.lol that is how it goes in the DE.

me not sure what DE is and im not sure about the engines.

[Lord J]

"DE" Dune Encyclopedia

[TMA_1]

Ibrahim Von Holtzman, the man who descovered the three dimensions of the Holtzman Wave. He was a great inventor and child to a noblemen. he crashed in his racing Thopter, which he loved to pilot. They were pretty new at the time and the Mollusk which powered the ship failed to pulse it's muscles. He almost died but luckely his family was rich. They used a primitive axolotl tank for his brain to be transplanted in. He was then wired to many computer systems by his demand. He also demanded that they transplant his brain to a special space craft he created. They attached the computer/brain of holtzmen into the ship which basically became his body. He began to go extremely insane and was ordered to be destroyed out of fear of his great intelligence. he ran and entered a comatory orbit around an unknown space body. a thousand years passed and the lines of communication were becoming stretched because of the use of regular light-wave information. When he came back he transmitted his first theory of the Holtzman wave. He then went back to comatory orbit in hiding out of extreme paranoia which he gained after his attacks. Deeper and deeper he went into his mind through the centuries. But the first theory he made enabled the empire to come out of its little darkage and communicate beyond the speed of light. He then after another thousand years came back but this time stayed in orbit around his homeworld. He then gave his second theory on Holtzman waves. after a time he left and this happened again after another thousand years. he came and gave the third theory and finally spacetravel with the holtzman waves became possible. The bulterian jihad struck though after a while and all of the thinking machines required for maintaining the empire were destroyed. when Ibrahim came back out of orbit, the forces of Jehanne Butler were waiting though. They destroyed him utterly, before he could give out the fourth theory which would solve the pieces of the puzzle for the long wanted Unified Theory of space-time and energy in physics. They destroyed before thinking and it costed them. They might have reached a golden age unsurpassed.

This is from my memory of the DE and some of the stuff might be incorrect. But the basic idea is totall right.

[Vanguard3000]

I finished the book a while ago, but forgot to post my findings here. :) Anyway, the engines they use appear simply to be "warp" engines, like Star Trek, or something. There's a part in the chapter where [hide]the League Armada reaches Earth[/hide] and it says they're moving "faster than photons".

This, to me, implies that they're not using any sort of "hyperspace" type thing.

Meh.

[TMA_1]

yeah I see what you mean.

SECRET!!!

also I noticed like with the travel with the navigation at the time. It seems that it is not as fast but they seemed to have traveled faster than the speed of light. Also notice the distance of each planet from another. They would travel between them at relatively small amounts of waiting time but no mention of holtzman waves. either they forgot or maybe it was something completely different. I am going to look back into it.

[Scrinlord]

it sounded to me like they just had really fast engines. they never make any mention of swithcing engines(I.e. the Jump to lightspeed in SW, engage warp drive in ST, etc) they just seem to go.

[Acriku]

And it couldn't be too big if you remember how small the ship was Agamemnon used to chase Vor. But then again he ran out of fuel fast ;)

[TMA_1]

we were talking about the DE, something you small minds wouldnt udnerstand, unless you read it.lol ;D

[Acriku]

And yet the thread topic says Butlerian Jihad D'oh!

[TMA_1]

lol no me and vanguard were talking about it. d'oh! back atcha! ;) hehe

[Vanguard3000]

I was talking about BJ, not the DE. Because of the scarcity of the book, I try not to refer to the DE in "regular" topics. Personally, I much prefer the explanation/stories from the DE, though. ;)

[Acriku]

*Does not reply to this thread to add to TMA's humility, ;)*