Wicca and Neo-peganism

[kblackthorne]

Nice how you've all avoided answering why you say Wicca does not and cannot work....

You made some statements. I'm just asking for clarification.

(And if you can't back up your statemetns, maybe you should re-think them.)

[kblackthorne]

I also find it interesting that although I have not mentioned my own religions background -- only challenged both sides of this argument when they have shown lapses in either factual information or in reasoning -- you have chosen to paint me on what you consider the losing side.

Are you that insecure? That someone who questions you -- basically, askes you to clarify sloppy thinking & reasoning, and to back up assertations with fact -- must be "the enemey"?

Interesting...

[Edric O]

On my part, I was only talking about the fact that spells obviously do not work. Why? Well, because you can't see their effects in daily life. Some spells are supposed to be pretty powerful, too... but I still fail to see any effects.

Now, if you can show me otherwise, I'm all ears.

[kblackthorne]

An outsider could say the same of the effects of prayer:

The results should seem spectacular, yet are usually unobservable to the outsider.

So are you saying prayer does not work?

[Edric O]

I have personal experience with prayer. I know it works, because it worked for me. Over and over again.

On the other hand, I have no experience with spells... so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Alright, you win. I have no proof to back up my claims that spells do not work.

Now, tell me what was the point you tried to prove.

[Caid Ivik]

Praying does work. As every type of meditation, even christianic praying has effects. But if the effect of Wiccan orgies is just that fun, it has effects too. I don't consider it as enemy, but just like a cult. I don't expect such effect as real religiose activities have.

[kblackthorne]

I should think my "point" was obvious from the Scripture quote I used:

Basically, that you were making claims about another religion that you cannot back up.

That you were using one set of rules to determine if another religion is valid, and a different set to determine if your own is.

That you set standards for another religion that your own cannot meet.

Basically, that you were behaving as a hypocrite.

Since I do not believe you are a hypocrite, I assumed you would wish this behavior pointed out, so you could correct it.

[kblackthorne]

Praying does work.

Why, I never claimed it didn't. I simply pointed out that a hypocritical standard was being used.

But if the effect of Wiccan orgies is just that fun, it has effects too. I don't consider it as enemy, but just like a cult. I don't expect such effect as real religiose activities have.

Hmmm. You seem to know a great deal about Wiccan activites, motivations, & goals. Would you mind stating your sources of such knowledge?

[TMA_1]

Do what thou wilt as long as you dont hurt others

---wiccan website.

Hedonism right there. That is the basic ideolgy behind wiccan beliefs.

Witchcraft does work. I dont deny the power behind it. I ask what p ower is behind it? I believe its demonic.

[kblackthorne]

This is the basis for your reference to orgies, and that the goal of said orgies is pleasure?

My... I didn't see any of that in what you posted!

[TMA_1]

I never said anything about orgies. That has to do with other religious groups and cults. Wicca doesnt practice that. other more sinister groups do.

[Edric O]

Since I do not believe you are a hypocrite, I assumed you would wish this behavior pointed out, so you could correct it.

Okay. Thank you. :)

[kblackthorne]

But if the effect of Wiccan orgies is just that fun, it has effects too. I don't consider it as enemy, but just like a cult.

I'm just asking where this knowledge comes from.

Are you telling me you cannot back up what you claim? What is the basis for the reference to Wiccan orgies?

Or is it merely slander?

[exatreide]

er its libel...

slander is spoken...

libel is text ;)

[kblackthorne]

Thank you.

(My problem is that, for me, this kind of forum bears far more resemblence to the spoken than written word. My own mental weirdness. ~shrug~)

So, then, it sounds like we have nothing here but groundless, hyporcritical accusations. Since I have yet to see a single accusation backed up by fact.

[DukeLeto]

I'm an athiest, so you all probably know where I stand on these things...Though my father is a druid. I really don't see anything wrong with any religion as long as you don't try to impose it on others.

[Edric O]

- post edited -

(the issue I had brought up has been solved)

[DukeLeto]

Ah...oops. :-X

[Caid Ivik]

But if the effect of Wiccan orgies is just that fun, it has effects too. I don't consider it as enemy, but just like a cult.

I'm just asking where this knowledge comes from.

Are you telling me you cannot back up what you claim? What is the basis for the reference to Wiccan orgies?

Or is it merely slander?

Wait, I don't use comp on Sunday, it's sacred day ;)

Maybe it was just a propaganda, but what I read about Wiccans (in one independent slovak newspaper), was talking about their rituals as "orgies". And from more of you I heard you hedonism and secular humanism are your prime philosophies. You do just some "witch" things, but don't experiment with it. It leads to dark magic. You start with stimulating emotions and end with necromancy.

And ghost summoning isn't best idea. That's personally prooved.

[sneezer3]

Thank you.

(My problem is that, for me, this kind of forum bears far more resemblence to the spoken than written word. My own mental weirdness. ~shrug~)

So, then, it sounds like we have nothing here but groundless, hyporcritical accusations. Since I have yet to see a single accusation backed up by fact.

<Note some of the stuff in this post is intended for Christans>

Well. there isn't much of a way to prove any fact here. However i am glade you pointed out how Edric was wrong.

I do belive spells work. but only on non-saved people Inless a saved person isn't in Gods will and maybe dranking takeing drugs etc etc. Why do i belive it don't work on saved people?

1 John 4:4

"Ye are of God little children and have overcome them: because grater is he that is in you, than is he that is in the world."

this means that GRATER is God Almighty then is Satin.

That old devil does have power though.

Lets look in Mark chapter 5 Where Jesus casted Demons out of a man.

Now this is where a demon actully speaks. now if a Demon can speak out of a humen then the devil has to have some power.

Mark 5:9

"And he asked him, what is thy name? And he answerd, saying My name is legion: for we are many"

i'l give you 3 of the bigest ways my sources tell me you can do to tell if somebody is demon possessed.

#1 The first thing you will notice is wild looking eyes. just strange looking yellowish etc. Sticking out eyes.

#2 Theres something about them and H2O<Water> They hang out near water. Lakes places like that.

#3 Chanting. Whipering to there self. Talking in other voices.

Heres what the bible says about witches

"Turn not to those who have famlier spirits or to wizerds: do not seek them out to be defiled by them I am the Lord your God."

Eph 6:12

If a witch accepts God he will no longer be able to do whatever he could before. His demons would have left him/her. but I'm guessing you have already heard about Salvation <John 3:16>

I now that there are Demons now days everwhere. America is probbly infested with them. Have you ever been to an airport and it seemed like something was diffrant there in the atmusfear? Just something in the air?

I put my trust i God. i don't even risk geting anything like that in me.

Btw did you regester just to post in this thread? DOn't worry we won't be mad if you did. ;) Need more people doing that! :D ;D I bet you found this site off a search engine din't you?

[exatreide]

well the freman had orgies to.....

[Anathema]

An orgie is not necessarily a gathering for sexual pleasure.

[Caid Ivik]

There are more pleasures than sexual. And more types of orgies. But all types are based on hedonism. Braking moral laws.

[kblackthorne]

I just think that if you're going to accuse a group -- particularly another religious group -- of a particular activity (especially a negative one) you should have some basis for it.

And you should be able to point to that source of information.

If I were to claim that Earthnuker (just to pick the last person to post) had sexual relations with bunny rabbits, you would want to know the basis of that claim. (And no, Earthnuker, I'm not claiming any knowledge of your species, let alone your sexual habits!)

Likewise, I have asked for the basis of the claims that have been made here about Wiccans.

And been told that I need to prove otherwise... I am not the one making claims. (The only claims I have made are about the behavior of individuals in this particular thread.)

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

If these claims are valid, it should be quite easy to point to an information source.

If they are baseless (false witness), then, of course, that evidence will be harder to produce.

None of my comments were intended for Christians, for I have yet to see much evidence of Christian behavior here. On the contrary, I have seen a number of people acting directly counter to Christ's instructions.

I have also noticed that it seems quite acceptable on this board to make defamatory claims about a group & individuals, and -- when these claims are proven false -- not to appologize.

Again, a lack of Christian behavior -- from folks screaming about how Christian they are.

It shows a certain... lack of repentance. A certain determination to continue in lies & hypocracy, once it is no longer being pointed out.

When it is discoverd that a claim cannot be supported, words are re-defined. (The new definition is never stated, nor what it refered to clarified. We are simply told it does not mean what it means.)

Yes, my friends, the Prince of Lies walks proud on this thread. Surely, he must be proud of his handiwork -- to have men who spout the name of God spreading lies, and claiming it is in God's name.

Perhaps some of you need to go take a long, hard look in the mirror before you indulge in that hedonistic pastime of indulging in false moral superiority. (It feels good, doesn't it, to rant about those nasty Wiccans? Why bother with checking that what you say is actually true...)

[kblackthorne]

My sincere appologies. I missed this line:

Maybe it was just a propaganda, but what I read about Wiccans (in one independent slovak newspaper), was talking about their rituals as "orgies".

What, may I ask, was the context of the article? Did the reporter know what (s)he was talking about? Did (s)he interview Wiccans, witness a ritual? Or was it just hearsay?