OK, so who of you are there?

[The_Sadukar]

Ah, but is that really possible? Or is evil entrenched in society itself?

So you surggest that we return to primal chaos for a while, and then rebuild? Sounds interesting.

[Edric O]

So you surggest that we return to primal chaos for a while, and then rebuild?

That would be ideal. Starting from scratch, building a better world the second (or rather third, if we count ancient Rome) time around.

[The_Sadukar]

Count me in, were there are conflict I am, mostely because I create conflict.

[Edric O]

Conflict? What conflict?

I never had any conflict in mind. Only a complete collapse of the current governments. There's no need for bloodshed.

[The_Sadukar]

No bloodshed? No killing, no rapeing? no plundering? no looting?

Then tell me how will you make anything collapse competely?

[Edric O]

I don't intend to. I said it would be ideal, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

[sneezer3]

Sneezer stop the crap. Your *only* source of information is that Satan called "J chick", indeed as someone said he put you agains others. I believe he has washed you brain and maybe he has washed your family's brain too, to atack with no reason to true Christians like Catholics are.

I am Catholic, my whole family is.

Several times I got down on my knees when I pray to Jesus.

I recognize him as the only God and as the only way to reach the father. And you say I am not Christian ?.LOL.

You should ask what Catholics believe in, you should ask us, instead of believing some demon separatist punk that only gives away his only twisted version of the bible, to put you againts other Christians.

Catholics are the first Church of J.C., not the only one actually, but one of them, we might have our differences, but our main agreement, the most important one, is that we believe in only one God : Jesus.

Last, but not least. Nobody (no human being) can give the status of Christian, or refuse to call you a Christian, any person deep down his/her feeling can feel that, it's free and up to anyone who wants to receive it and get commited to follow that path.

Sneezer stop the crap. Your *only* source of information is that Satan called "J chick", indeed as someone said he put you agains others. I believe he has washed you brain and maybe he has washed your family's brain too, to atack with no reason to true Christians like Catholics are.

Shesh how many people you have to deal with even if your the only person right. :P I had a feeling you'd spot this thread sooner or later.

Ok first off Jack Chick is not my *only* Source of Information. i have other sources. Its just i got a person or to mad posting like crazy argueing. and i had to fend them off and that tottly turned the topic around.

I am Catholic, my whole family is.

Several times I got down on my knees when I pray to Jesus.

I recognize him as the only God and as the only way to reach the father. And you say I am not Christian ?.LOL.

No. i never recall saying any such thing. DON'T SAY SOMETHING I DIN'T SAY. YOU ARE PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I NEVER PUT WORDS INTO YOUR MOUTH.

What determens if you are Christan or not is saved or lost. If you have accepted Jesus Christ has your own personl Savour. Like I said some Cathlics Got this on Right. But most belive you have to be babtizt in water. If you don't belive me go back to that site and read the 3 pages of the counter to that tract.

but our main agreement, the most important one, is that we believe in only one God : Jesus.

The Cathlics worship Mary has well. Edric O can Canfirm this if you don't belive me on this one.

Last, but not least. Nobody (no human being) can give the status of Christian, or refuse to call you a Christian, any person deep down his/her feeling can feel that, it's free and up to anyone who wants to receive it and get commited to follow that path.

Anybody can call you whatever they want to. if they don't want to call you a Christan then they might call you an AOL user ;D

And if nobody can refuse to call you a Christan wow sounds preety cool Zamboe. opps i din't call you a Christen just by your Regulur username ;D

And yes somebody can determen your baseic status. by seeing how much you know about the bible.

any person deep down his/her feeling can feel that, it's free and up to anyone who wants to receive it and get commited to follow that path.

I think you mean his/her heart. and you don't get commited to fallow any path. you get saved by Grace Though Faith.

You should ask what Catholics believe in, you should ask us, instead of believing some demon separatist punk that only gives away his only twisted version of the bible, to put you againts other Christians.

You act like I talk directly to him or something. :P

Now your calling him a Demon? I din't know a humen could be a fallen angle. That isn't even Cathlic belivfes I don't think.

Now I wonder what kind of a Demon Separatist punk could have told you that ::)

And for your infomation he din't write it its been out in Englesh since 1611<Or that might have been when it came out in greek i'm not sure.>

[sneezer3]

Sneezer, what you don't understand is that both Protestants and Catholics believe in the same Salvation. You are BOTH right.

I'm not sure what a protestant is. but I'm a babtist.

Let's stop messing around with religion wars, and concentrate on ridding ourselves of evil of society, whatever religion it may be entrneched in - remove the evil from each group of society without removing that group (unless, of course that group is, by definition evil)

Well your partly correct.

There would still be evil in it. the bible says "What Fellowship hath light with darkness?" it would be best to find out whats right and why first. no?

[emprworm]

No. there is a diffrance between Translateing it And makeing it "Easyer to understand". And if you change it into whatever Langwich that would still apply not to change its meaning.

sneezer, i hate to break this to you, but would you expect a Chinese person to read a KJV version of the BIble, or a Chinese version of the Bible? Does the word of God have any value whatsoever if the recipient cannot understand it? A person that reads only Chinese has no use for a KJV.

And I am going to bring you very bad news now. The KJV is written in another language that I and many others cannot understand. The KJV is like reading a Hebrew manuscript. It has no value because it is not understood by the majority of people today. Telling me to read the KJV is exactly the same as forcing a chinese person to read an English translation. It is utter futility and has less value than a brick. Unless you deliver the word of God in an understandable format, there is no benefit whatsoever to the listener. none. zip. notta. zippo.

And the very very bad news for you sneezer: The KJV is not an understandable format for millions of people- including myself. Therefore, it has little value to us. Now to everyone who understands that KJV language, there is value, but for those of us who do not understand that form of language, you might as well have us reading Egyptian Heiroglyphics. THANK GOD that people made English translations like the NAS that people like me can understand. Because the KJV is not the same language that I speak. The KJV is another language completely from the one that I speak and read.

I do not know that language. And i do not intend to learn it.

[The_Sadukar]

Sneezer, what you don't understand is that both Protestants and Catholics believe in the same Salvation. You are BOTH right.

I'm not sure what a protestant is. but I'm a babtist.

Let's stop messing around with religion wars, and concentrate on ridding ourselves of evil of society, whatever religion it may be entrneched in - remove the evil from each group of society without removing that group (unless, of course that group is, by definition evil)

Well your partly correct.

There would still be evil in it. the bible says "What Fellowship hath light with darkness?" it would be best to find out whats right and why first. no?

Just to check, do you konw anything at all?

[sneezer3]

sneezer, i hate to break this to you, but would you expect a Chinese person to read a KJV version of the BIble, or a Chinese version of the Bible? Does the word of God have any value whatsoever if the recipient cannot understand it? A person that reads only Chinese has no use for a KJV.

And I am going to bring you very bad news now. The KJV is written in another language that I and many others cannot understand. The KJV is like reading a Hebrew manuscript. It has no value because it is not understood by the majority of people today. Telling me to read the KJV is exactly the same as forcing a chinese person to read an English translation. It is utter futility and has less value than a brick. Unless you deliver the word of God in an understandable format, there is no benefit whatsoever to the listener. none. zip. notta. zippo.

And the very very bad news for you sneezer: The KJV is not an understandable format for millions of people- including myself. Therefore, it has little value to us. Now to everyone who understands that KJV language, there is value, but for those of us who do not understand that form of language, you might as well have us reading Egyptian Heiroglyphics. THANK GOD that people made English translations like the NAS that people like me can understand. Because the KJV is not the same language that I speak. The KJV is another language completely from the one that I speak and read.

I do not know that language. And i do not intend to learn it.

You missed my point in the last post.

There is a diffrance between Translateing it into another language. and altering it. The bible gives us a clear warning not ot alter it. or it will put the plagues that are written in it on to us.

God perserverd his word in englesh. even if its not latin language is it still understandable. It never goes any futher then the fourth grade level. Most of it is so easy to understand that a kid arpund 7 years old could.

I knew that it would probbly come to this.

I would compair a bible or two to the KJV. However since i don't have the time right now, and I really don't feel like it. these links will have to do.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/footnotes.asp

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/nkjvtext.asp

all of the new versions make it harder to understand.

[emprworm]

God perserverd his word in englesh. even if its not latin language is it still understandable.

if you are referring to the KJV, it is not understandable. Understanding is key, Sneezer. If a man cannot understand the language a scripture is written in, it is useless to him. The task of the Church is to translate the Bible into all 3000 languages of the world. Do you believe this, Sneezer? If so, then please tell me which of those 3000 translations are "demonic?"

If a translation misses a "the" or a "and"...BIG DEAL, i mean cmon dude! No translation can be 100% perfect. And there is no doctrine that says they are.

[Edric O]

I'm not sure what a protestant is. but I'm a babtist.

Protestants include all denominations which trace their heritage back to the Reformation. Therefore, Babtists are also Protestants.

What determens if you are Christan or not is saved or lost. If you have accepted Jesus Christ has your own personl Savour.

ALL Catholics believe this! Just like you do!

The Cathlics worship Mary has well.

No, they do NOT. Any Catholic can tell you that.

[Edric O]

And Emprworm is right. Did you know that there are deliberate mistranslations in the KJV? Let me give you an example:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

- Exodus 22:18 (KJV)

This was done at King James' personal orders. He was afraid of witches, you see... Unfortunately, it has found its way into other translations as well... The original text said:

Thou shalt not suffer an evil doer to live among you.

- Exodus 22:18 (several other translations, including the Romanian one which I have; also in the original manuscripts, as far as I know)

[Caid Ivik]

Oh my God, you all have written so much, I don't have time to reply on all ;D

First, I must ask you: why do you use a translation made before more than 300 years, also by a protestant church? It wasn't even all completely discovered. Newest form is the New Vulgate, official Vatican translation made in times of Second Council of Vaticano before about 30 years. And that's saying EdricO's second sententce. Upgrade your Bible or read appendixes before you'll attack it for brutality or hate guide. Anyway, KJV has also written "thou shalt not to kill".

The Cathlics worship Mary has well.

No, they do NOT. Any Catholic can tell you that.

That's not fully true, but worshipping st.Mary isn't like we worship God. Better word than worship is "regard". I always tought you orthodox regard her more than us catholics. Many people see her as human nearest to God's throne, so we pray to her to ensure her help in salvation process. Also she had lived very good life, example for the others. But we all know, she has no power over this world now. We regard many saint people, but as patrons, not as our lords.

[emprworm]

no catholics do no worship mary directly, but they do talk to her, and this is a very dangerous thing to do.

mary is a finite limited being, not possessing the attributes of God. Mary cannot hear your petitions. She cannot deal with 15,000 (conservative estimate) petitions per second from all parts of the earth- some whispered, some even in thought!!!! Yes! Some catholics just THINK petitions to Mary as if she can know what is inside their head. And then they think that Mary has the 'omniscience' that is necessary to process 15,000+ petitions per second from multiple locations simultanously in addition to the omnipotence required for her to hear them all. The absurdity of it all is astounding. These are abilities that only GOD can do. And furthermore, there is nothing even remotely scriptural about it.

By ascribing to Mary the attributes of the One God, they are, in effect, worshipping her.

[Edric O]

Yes, Emprworm, I agree. If you add up the numbers it just doesn't make sense, because Mary is only human after all. However, as Caid pointed out, Catholics don't "worship" Mary. They do treat her as if she could hear and reply to thousands of things at the same time, which simply isn't possible.

Caid, the Catholic Church is the one that puts the most emphasis on Mary. The Orthodox are close, but they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception like you do.

And I'm not "fully" Orthodox. I don't agree with everything our Orthodox Church says. I like to think things out on my own. :)

[emprworm]

i do believe Mary is fully alive and well, but she can only be in one place at one time. she cannot possibly hear my whispers or know what I am doing unless she is present near me- let alone things that I am thinking! Only God can do those things. The ability to ascertain the thoughts and requests of 6 billion people from any point on earth (and in the universe for that matter) at any time, and then fully comprehend them all simultaneously is part of what makes God who He is. Giving those qualities to mary is a grievous error that some pope (probably had a bad relationship with his mother), one day just thought he would 'toss in' with the other doctrines. And who would argue it? 1000 years ago, if a pope says it, then all will adhere to it without question. Another bad idea.

[Acriku]

If the Word of God was so understandable, why is the bible so ambiguous and parablous?

[emprworm]

i have no problem whatsoever understanding parables.

language itself is merely a conglomeration of literary techniques. anything you read that causes you to understand is the result of some kind of literary technique. you have no real desire to understand the bible, hence attacking it on these grounds is simple for you. Like reading Moby Dick in high school. I had no desire to read that piece of crap. Therefore, it was unintelligeable as far as I was concerned.

[Acriku]

I can understand what I do not agree with. I would have to understand it somewhat to truly disagree with it. I have a bible from my mom right here, it's leather with gold. Not agreeing with it doesn't make it chinese to me :P

[emprworm]

well if you can understand it, then why did you say:

"If the Word of God was so understandable, why is the bible so ambiguous and parablous?" fully implying that it is NOT understandable.

[Acriku]

No, it implies that there are a lot of things I don't understand in it, because it is ambiguous. But it is ambiguous to a lot of others to, christians themselves. Edric knows of some ambiguity in the bible, so does that imply he doesn't understand the bible?

[sneezer3]

And Emprworm is right. Did you know that there are deliberate mistranslations in the KJV? Let me give you an example:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

- Exodus 22:18 (KJV)

This was done at King James' personal orders. He was afraid of witches, you see... Unfortunately, it has found its way into other translations as well... The original text said:

Thou shalt not suffer an evil doer to live among you.

- Exodus 22:18 (several other translations, including the Romanian one which I have; also in the original manuscripts, as far as I know)

Funny. There is something slightly simlir I heard of.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/witch.asp

And no. King James orderd no such thing. he had no part in the trasnlation and orderd nothing to be put in there. I guess you should ask that has a bible version question and you'l get your answer within 2 weeks. btw no one person could alter it. it was gone over by more then 50 people Quite a few times.

God perserverd his word in englesh. even if its not latin language is it still understandable.

if you are referring to the KJV, it is not understandable. Understanding is key, Sneezer. If a man cannot understand the language a scripture is written in, it is useless to him. The task of the Church is to translate the Bible into all 3000 languages of the world. Do you believe this, Sneezer? If so, then please tell me which of those 3000 translations are "demonic?"

If a translation misses a "the" or a "and"...BIG DEAL, i mean cmon dude! No translation can be 100% perfect. And there is no doctrine that says they are.

yes. and none of those 3000 Translations are demonic has long has there KJV. and i never said anything about any of the bibles being demonic. But i think the water down the bible. Thats why i only use KJV. all of the rest are to dull for me.<The bible is cansiderd to be a sword. not the dull has in boring but has in less sharper. ;)>

Has for your question i'm not sure. It depends on what language its in. if that it does not have that word then I can understand. there are probbly certin ways to trasnlate it. or certin rules that I don't know about.

What determens if you are Christan or not is saved or lost. If you have accepted Jesus Christ has your own personl Savour.

ALL Catholics believe this! Just like you do!

Yes. but the belive in a diffrant metheod of being saved. Unless of course they have changed what they belive in recently. go back to that site. then go to page 2 of "are Romen Cathlecs Christans?" they belive you have to be babtiezt in water. Or at lest they did. Now like i said before some of them have gotten this issue right. and are actully saved. unfoutently vary few.

By the way. I ment to edit my post but dune2k went down :P so i'l just include it in this one.

Zamboe. Jack Chick don't hate Cathlics. he just loves them enough to give them the truth. go to the infomation center. and read up. He says it in thr kindest way he knows how.

[Edric O]

Acriku, when did I ever say anything like that? ???

Sneezer, first of all that article you gave me doesn't talk about the "among you" part, which is the most important. Second, as the article does point out, the original text is referring to some sort of evil magic practitioner, but not to Wiccans or anyone like that (who weren't even known to the Hebrews). So using that verse as a justification for any action against Wiccans is completely insane and unchristian.

And please get informed about the Catholic beliefs regarding Salvation. Right now you have no idea what you're talking about. Baptism is not Salvation!!