What the...? A letter by Bin Laden?!

[emprworm]

i wont deny it says that, but honestly i do not know where. there are so many references to inequality.

[Acriku]

Edric, no one in this forum wants to die for their country, they want to fight for their country, and if it means death then so be it. Here's a quote you should consider:

No poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

[emprworm]

LOL i love that quote. Thats from General Patton right?

what a great quote.

[Acriku]

Yep :D

[TMA_1]

oh man I love patton. He is my favorite WW2 general.

"I read your book!" he actually did say this when fighting with rommel in africa. Erwin Rommel was a great tank general. Patton read his book on military stratagy and tactics.

"do you ever find time to read the bible?" "Every God damn day." Patton was asked by a priest if he read the bible because patton had it with him all the time.

Watch the movie. It is beautiful. Crafted from some of the best film art.

Also emprworm, no doubt you are very well read but the old testament has some views that now days would be looked upon as horrible. Like I said you cant judge cultures based on their moral viewpoints. Only until they effect you. If they leave alone then they will pay in due time when they meet Face to Face with God himself. "Vengence is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

[Edric O]

Yes, Patton had a way of putting things bluntly. And he's right. That quote shows the ridiculous nature of patriotism, IMO.

If you would be willing to fight (and possibly die) for your country, then you have NO right to lecture me on not fighting (and possibly dieing) for my religion.

And unlike people fighting for their countries, I would never kill for my religion. Because Christianity is a religion of peace and love.

Would YOU kill for your country? Then what right do you have to blame someone who would kill you for his/her country?

[emprworm]

there are a lot of harsh things in the bible. lots of harsh people. yet the ONLY one I am commanded to follow is Jesus. Also, he is also the only one worth following.

Yet in Islam muslims are to be like Muhammad. He is their ultimate role model. The man who married 20 wives, including a 9 year old, who butchered people wherever he went...this is the Muslim example of holiness.

Now, consider this. What if, instead of Muhammad, all muslims were told that siddartha guatama (Buddah) was their ultimate example? You think there would still be as much bloodshed?

[TMA_1]

there are many buddhist and hindu zealots actually. Religion is an end to justify the means to people they disagree with. Christianity is not a religion in the way I believe.

[quoudam72]

Also emprworm, no doubt you are very well read but the old testament has some views that now days would be looked upon as horrible.

Yes they would be correct TMA_1. We could take the Torah, the Qu'ran and the Bible (yes Emprwrm I read all three that is why I have not even contested your posting of surahs from the Qu'ran) and find all manner of things that would be politically incorrect, racist, and ignorant. Yahweh, Allah and God all start to sound alike if you really get to the core of the matter. The Mosaic Law starts to sound like Hammurabi (282 written laws I guess you could condense it to 10 commandants), Noah starts to sound like Gilimesh and the funny things is that the Jews were in captivity in Babylon were this originated.

[emprworm]

i agree with your quondam, but the sermons on the mount sound superior to them all

[Acriku]

Edric, it isn't the reason behind fighting. It's the METHOD of fighting, whether it be blowing yourself in the middle of a civilian area hoping to get as many people as you can in a single blast, or shooting oppressors to free the people. Choose your method!

[quoudam72]

Emprwrm would you be speaking of Matthew 5-7, yes?

[emprworm]

basically the teachings of jesus.

so, yea

[emprworm]

Posted by: Acriku- Posted on: Today at 14:58:27

Edric, it isn't the reason behind fighting. It's the METHOD of fighting, whether it be blowing yourself in the middle of a civilian area hoping to get as many people as you can in a single blast, or shooting oppressors to free the people. Choose your method!

i posted an article in the all about islam thread by an egyptian who actually calls them cowards without honor. its an interesting read if you get the time

[TMA_1]

your agreeing with quondum about the ideas that the jews took ideas from other cultures is silly. Though it does explain how things are it doesnt mean its right. All peoples in ancient times knew the truth, some though distorted it. Hammurabi established laws that were already in use. The laws of the Jews are different in many ways. Just because something doesnt look right to us arrogant westerners doesnt mean its inferior. As a matter of fact, the ancients were more civilized than now days. I agree with quondum about the old testament looking politically incorrect now days. That is true. I ask you though quondum... does that make the old testament views (which christians dont follow anymore as laws of nationality) somehow inferior to now days standards?

[VigilVirus]

If everyone takes out an eye for an eye we would all be blind. It just the simple truth, how can you base a religion on that??

[Acriku]

The societies were very different back then. You can't simply criticize one's rules and philosophies because they may seem barbaric or unethical, they are different, were in a different situation and time, and were products of society.

[TMA_1]

and it worked back then. You see our laws have turned to vengence. In ancient times they seemed vengful but were actually there because of equal discipline. If you did something to somebody. YOu pay for what you do. At a perfect time there was no emotion in the sentancing it was just paying back what you did. Now days its so full of emotion that it is more barbaric now days. People who go to prison and get out are stigmatized and cant get jobs and become criminals again. in ANcient times you paid for your mistakes and it was done and over with. Now days people are branded and can never clear thieir mistakes. Our modern arrogance leads to the most barbaric crimes of all.

[emprworm]

and it worked back then. You see our laws have turned to vengence. In ancient times they seemed vengful but were actually there because of equal discipline. If you did something to somebody. YOu pay for what you do. At a perfect time there was no emotion in the sentancing it was just paying back what you did. Now days its so full of emotion that it is more barbaric now days. People who go to prison and get out are stigmatized and cant get jobs and become criminals again.

huh? Slavery, lawlessness? Conquerors? Burning at the stakes? Yea, i guess it worked, but i wouldn't say it was moral.

in ANcient times you paid for your mistakes and it was done and over with.

yea, you were killed. done and over with.

[VigilVirus]

Basically, I guess what you're trying to say, TMA, is that extreme punishment is good??

[TMA_1]

at times yes it did. And empr, do you think rampent drug use, homosexuality, openness to horrible and graphic things, oversensitivity of the populous and other things are good that we do now days? Just because some evils of the past seem to be "non existant" doesnt mean tehy arent and new problems come out from the cause of it.

[Anathema]

You resent homosexual people? There are a few people on this boards who admit being homosexual themselves.

From Emp:

I say TOUGH for Palestinians who demand their own state. Just like I say TOUGH for anyone else who demands liberation and is unable to muster up enough support to oust the government they want to uproot. Isreal will allow the palestinians to live under an Israeli state as Israeli citizens. Only in the case that Israel is persecuting the palestinians AFTER this conflict is over, will I rise up and speak out against what Israel is doing.

I would say "lol" but there is nothing funny about the subject. The israelians will never accept the palestinians as equal citizens. To state otherwise is ludicrous.

You critisise those who blow themselves up in public and kill jewish civilians. You however, do not critizise those who use tanks and shoot innocent Palestinian civilians. The Palestinians can say "the jewish state Irael is democratic, therefore the israelians support their policies and are thus guilty". Jews do not have the excuse of saying that about the Palestinians.

[Acriku]

The Israel Service does not shoot on civilians on purpose, looking for as many children and other innocents to kill. The palestines do. The palestines that are involved with the terrorist bombings in Israel should all be shot. I don't care if it is their only option, because it isn't their only option. They just think it is, if they are going to hate Israelians for a long time then they are helping no one. Their religion is the cause for this war, like an innocent virus spreading and making people sick. But now it isn't about religion, it's about killing Israelians, it's about getting the land they had gotten from conquering it from somebody else, it's about principle. Intentionally going after civilians doesn't do a damned thing, and it is the lowest tier you can sink to.

[VigilVirus]

You contradict yourself, Acriku. First you say it's about religion and then you say it is not. You make no sense whatsoever. Islam is not a disease, it's a belief and not all muslims are extremists. If you didn't know, jews are religious fanatics and extremists as well, only they don't need to kill themselves to prove their point - they can have their US technology do it for them.

But what is the point of trying to prove to a jew that he is wrong about Israel?

[Dude_Doc]

Hmm... If you take a look on the Christian society, you see how far we have come. If you take a look on the Muslim society, well, you can still see they are left in the bad days. Evolution is kind of rasising a child. First you teach him, he grows and starts to think on his own. You can't decide what he is should believe in his whole lifetime. That's exactly what God did. And He knew that. Many people today say they realise that there is no God, because there is no proof of it. They have evolved. They think whatever they want to think. Many friends I know don't believe in God. Still, they're doing better than me! I believe in God. I praise Him to help me in hard situations. How come America, Europe and Asia is doing so well? But Middle East is not? It will not help dying for Muhammed or Allah. Sure, if Jesus came to me, in person, and I knew it was he, and ordered me to kill some evil person, I would. But they have killed for so long! And who told them? Allah? Muhammed? If God wanted the evil humans destroyed, He could have done it by Himself.