FOW is Ridiculous

[Taqwa11]

Here's what someone wrote on the Generals forum regarding fog of war. I completely agree with this opinion with regard to Emperor. What are your thoughts?

Fog of war is one of the stupidest ideas in gaming, especially in a futuristic war game. It may have its place in a medieval-type wargame, but it has no place in a game like Generals. I guess in the future we won't have spy planes or satellites, and we'll forget that we know pretty much every square mile on the face of the civilized world, and instead we'll just send out people all over the battle field so they can tell us what they see. In an RTS game, nothing is wrong with both playes seeing everything each other is doing and countering it. Imagine if chess were played so that you could only see one square in any direction from a piece. How would you formulate a strategy? Imagine this: "Gee, I can't see whether he castled or not, so I'll just attack the middle assuming his king is still there." I think it's ridiculous that with FOW you have to have a unit in an area at all times in order to see anything. Does anyone else realize how stupid that is, especially in a game about modern warfare? FOW is for pussy players who need to hide what they are doing to try and suprise the other player simply because they don't know how to play a straight-up game of I see you and you see me and the goal is to counter effectively.

[IxianMace]

I don't agree with the pussy part, but I do agree entirely with the rest of what has been said. FOW is unnecessary and a ridiculous nuisance in a game. I don't like the idea of FOW, but there may be other reasons why some people like to play with it turned on, not just because they are supposed 'pussies' that need to hide their units etc, etc. ::)

[Taqwa11]

Yeah, the "pussy" part is a little strong. But unless you are trying to disguise the fact that you have just built a superweapon or you are pumping out Guild in the back of your base, why do you have to hide in order to win? Whenever I play a person who wants fog-of-war on, I know they are planning a sneaky game because they doubt their ability to fight face-to-face and eye-to-eye. They are thinking that if they can just keep me from seeing what they are doing long enough, they can unleash the big surprise they need in order to compete.

[IxianMace]

They are thinking that if they can just keep me from seeing what they are doing long enough, they can unleash the big surprise they need in order to compete.

That may be the case, but don't forget that he will not be able to see what you are doing either. So either way it evens out if you think about it. Neither of you can see what the other is doing. I personally don't like FOW, but for some players, it could just be a way to make the game more challenging or interesting.

[Taqwa11]

Here's a good illustration of my own opinion:

A couple of days ago I played a five-hour game--YES, FIVE HOURS--against magicage8 (allmebaby) on Broken Plain. I finally won a very tight, very competitive battle--one of the most intense games I've ever played. He really knows how to use Ix projectors (and Ix bombs) and protect them well. I used Atreides/Sard/Fremen, and he used Atreides/Sard/Ix, and fog of war was off. We both scouted the map well, and we could both see everything each other had. We both had outposts, too, so the map was completely clear. With no fog of war, and no hiding, it was a very intense countering game. It was back and forth, back and forth, with the end completely in doubt until the last ten minutes. If fog of war had been on, one of us would have probably had a better view of the battlefield and been able to pop a big surprise on the other. But as it was, we had to fight face-to-face with no hiding. Fog of war has no place in such a game of two so equally matched opponents, just as a luck feature such as living world would have had no place either.

[Taqwa11]

Yes, Ixian, but with fog of war on there will always be one player who has a vision edge, many times due simply to the fact that fewer of his first scouts were killed, or one of them made it through to the back of the other player's base before the defense was set. I guess I just like a game where I see what you have, you see what I have, and we both have to counter with no guesswork.

[IxianMace]

or one of them made it through to the back of the other player's base before the defense was set.

That's a good argument, but sooner or later that scout will be discovered simply because it causes a building to be unable to be placed (you see a red square in the building grid when there is 'nothing' there). Both players have the opportunity to see the entire battlefield in clear view even if FOW is enabled. Simply send scouts and use them everywhere. Of course, this will mean that you will be getting very frustrated with major scout losses, and the horrendoes micromanagement involved, but that's just a nuisance that has to be dealt with I guess. Anyway, I've never played a game with FOW on (not even against the computer) and I have no intention of doing so. If someone has FOW on in his/her game room and I don't like it, I'll ask them to change it. If they refuse, then I'll just simply leave. It's just not my type of game, not due to the fact that I'm a 'pussy' that's scared to play on that players' settings etc, etc... Anyway, as far as FOW is concerned, I think it is an unneccesary element in games (as far as Emperor Battle for Dune is concerned) and I've never played a single game with it on. Yes, I do like to have the right to see the terrain permanently that I've already revealed from the shroud, not have to uncover it again. ::)

[Taqwa11]

True, Ixian. You've never played QM, though? The three things I hate about QM are:

1. Fog of war is alway on.

2. The low money early game favors rushers, not Atreides, IMHO.

3. Living world is always on, making luck a big part, or at least potentially a big part, of the game. I think worms like Minos best of all.

My type of game is medium money, LW off, FOW off, and no superweapons. That way, luck is eliminated, and it's a level playing field with no excuses.

Oh, by the way, Hwi did sound hot, but my personal favorite was either Lucilla or Murbella. Both were great fighters, and both knew how to sexually dominate a male. Murbella made Duncan her love slave, after all. Yeah, baby!

[IxianMace]

You've never played QM, though?

I have played QM before. One quick match game on Canyon Channel, which I won. ^-^ I was Atreides and my opponent was Ordos. I won with an APC full of engineers in the back ramp of his base, where only 1 mortar infantry was standing. He had the rest of his stuff up front. ::)

My type of game is medium money, LW off, FOW off, and no superweapons. That way, luck is eliminated, and it's a level playing field with no excuses.

Luck is not entirely eliminated here. What about crates? The optimal settings for me would be everything off 5-20k range. The reason I hate crates specifically in online games is because sometimes, you can run into crates that reveal the entire map right at the start of the game, which gives you an enormous advantage. Or you could pick up crates that give you things like Guild NIAB tanks or Ordos Advanced Carryalls etc etc. I believe that with everything off, it's a perfectly fair game, so long as no cheats/bug exploits are involved etc, etc. ::) Crates, Living World, and Fog Of War are completely unacceptable. Any game that has these enabled (except comp stomps ::)) will have me leaving the room before the game has even started. (Ok maybe I could play with these on once in awhile, if I come under a different nick and want to try something new or I just feel like playing for fun and not try to seriously win. :P)

[Taqwa11]

Yeah, I considered crates as well, and thought about it after I wrote that reply. You're right, but I never found crates to be such a problem as living world and FOW. You just have to make sure you keep your eyes open and grab your crates, and I'm pretty good at picking them up. But, yes, crates should be off too for a luck-free game.

[lowzeewee]

Yup!But crates r always in for me!I defeated opponents twice bcoz of a crate containing an engineer which i found with a scout while scouting the enemy base.n guess wat?it was right next 2 da conyard LOL so i grabbed the conyard n ripped off da useless base with machinegun posts

[atrd3m0n]

Here's a good illustration of my own opinion:

A couple of days ago I played a five-hour game--YES, FIVE HOURS--against magicage8 (allmebaby) on Broken Plain. I finally won a very tight, very competitive battle--one of the most intense games I've ever played. He really knows how to use Ix projectors (and Ix bombs) and protect them well. I used Atreides/Sard/Fremen, and he used Atreides/Sard/Ix, and fog of war was off. We both scouted the map well, and we could both see everything each other had. We both had outposts, too, so the map was completely clear. With no fog of war, and no hiding, it was a very intense countering game. It was back and forth, back and forth, with the end completely in doubt until the last ten minutes. If fog of war had been on, one of us would have probably had a better view of the battlefield and been able to pop a big surprise on the other. But as it was, we had to fight face-to-face with no hiding. Fog of war has no place in such a game of two so equally matched opponents, just as a luck feature such as living world would have had no place either.

Damn 5 hrs??? I only needed 15 mins beeing atr to waste his ass ;D ;D ;D

[Taqwa11]

Well, maybe if I had been using Ordos or Hark, or I had used more of a rush strategy (in Atreides vs. Atreides you can do that old Mino "rush"--LOL) it might have taken less time. My mistake was in letting the game get to the point where he had about nine Ix projectors, with turrets all around them and projected fremen snipers all around them while they just pumped out whatever he needed to counter. We both had two bases at that point. For a good part of the game, I had the definite money advantage, but with a good Ix projection player, low money is less of a handicap. I was thinking, "OMG what have I done letting myself get into a long game with an expert Ix player?" What finally turned the game was when my drones got the best of his drones, I attacked his carryalls and took out the rest of his money, and then my money advantage let me pump out minos backed up by fremen warriors and sard elites to take down his large base. And what finished the game off was twenty ornithopters who took out the remaining Ix projectors when he could make no more drones.

But that's all off-track from this post. The point was, we could each see what the other was doing and counter it, without fog of war or luck involved.

[Taqwa11]

Trust me, I'm a very good late-game Atreides player. I like long, drawn-out battles of endurance and strategy. If you let me get into late-game, I can be quite formidable. Almost all of my losses are within fifteen minutes. But this guy is also very good late game. If you get into a long game against him, you will see that it is no easy chore to bring down a well-established, well-protected Ix man. It was just back and forth the whole game. I'd do something I thought would turn the tide of the battle, and he'd counter in some way that would shift the momentum. We had multiple attempts on both sides at buiding more than one expansion base only to have it engineered or destroyed. And the air drone battles alone were incredible. It was a constant struggle to gain air superiority.

But see what you did now? You got me into a long discussion about a game I was only using to make a point for this post. LOL. Anyhow, back on topic: FOW is Ridiculous.

[ethan]

crates, FOW, living world, and superweapons are mostly luck. ie, if your oppenent gets a palace and deathhands your palace or factory, you're introuble already, not so much the damage, but the radiation is the thing.

crates, onetime i was playing against the comp and i found a crate with an engi and took his barracks and stated pumping chems and enis. i had two bases before anyone else had 1! ;D

[atrd3m0n]

Trust me, I'm a very good late-game Atreides player. I like long, drawn-out battles of endurance and strategy. If you let me get into late-game, I can be quite formidable. Almost all of my losses are within fifteen minutes. But this guy is also very good late game. If you get into a long game against him, you will see that it is no easy chore to bring down a well-established, well-protected Ix man. It was just back and forth the whole game. I'd do something I thought would turn the tide of the battle, and he'd counter in some way that would shift the momentum. We had multiple attempts on both sides at buiding more than one expansion base only to have it engineered or destroyed. And the air drone battles alone were incredible. It was a constant struggle to gain air superiority.

But see what you did now? You got me into a long discussion about a game I was only using to make a point for this post. LOL. Anyhow, back on topic: FOW is Ridiculous.

lol hmmm late game.. then I would be something like drnknmsta ;D

[atrd3m0n]

And yes, FOW suxx ;D ;)

[Terror]

well even with our technology right now we can hardly see all the details on a world map for example at this time.. otherwise we could see if saddam has nuclear weapons now.. we suspect him of having those weapons.. but we're not sure. Same goes for games. What i hate in emperor for instance is that once you've scouted the entire map the enemy can't do anything sneaky anymore... a sneaky drop in the back of you base? forget it. build up a secret army? forget it...

it's not realy fun if someone can see everything you're doing

[VigilVirus]

You can steal be sneaky. You know, a person can't view all of the stuff at once unless he has an outpost and even then, all he can see is a bunch of dots.

[Terror]

hmm k.. but you are not sure if the enemy doesn't see it... actually you have more chance that they did see it

[Brennq]

True, Ixian. You've never played QM, though? The three things I hate about QM are:

1. Fog of war is alway on.

2. The low money early game favors rushers, not Atreides, IMHO.

3. Living world is always on, making luck a big part, or at least potentially a big part, of the game. I think worms like Minos best of all.

My type of game is medium money, LW off, FOW off, and no superweapons. That way, luck is eliminated, and it's a level playing field with no excuses.

Oh, by the way, Hwi did sound hot, but my personal favorite was either Lucilla or Murbella. Both were great fighters, and both knew how to sexually dominate a male. Murbella made Duncan her love slave, after all. Yeah, baby!

1. fog off war is NOT always on(it's random i guess)

2. living world is NOT always on(also random i suppose)

where did u get this ? ???

[Taqwa11]

Fog of war will go off if you get a crate that clears the map for you, right? And yes, living world IS always on in QM.

[IxianMace]

Oh, by the way, Hwi did sound hot, but my personal favorite was either Lucilla or Murbella. Both were great fighters, and both knew how to sexually dominate a male. Murbella made Duncan her love slave, after all. Yeah, baby!

I have never heard of Lucilla or Murbella. I have only read up to 'God Emperor of Dune'. If you're going to post possible spoilers, please put them in hidden text and warn before doing so. :(

[Taqwa11]

Ok, but those aren't really spoilers--that is if you know anything about Duncan. And Lucilla and Murbella are just names of unknown people. But I'll say no more.

[Andrew]

True, Ixian. You've never played QM, though? The three things I hate about QM are:

1. Fog of war is alway on.

2. The low money early game favors rushers, not Atreides, IMHO.

3. Living world is always on, making luck a big part, or at least potentially a big part, of the game. I think worms like Minos best of all.

My type of game is medium money, LW off, FOW off, and no superweapons. That way, luck is eliminated, and it's a level playing field with no excuses.

Oh, by the way, Hwi did sound hot, but my personal favorite was either Lucilla or Murbella. Both were great fighters, and both knew how to sexually dominate a male. Murbella made Duncan her love slave, after all. Yeah, baby!

in reply to murbella/duncan

[hide] Murbella was also Duncans slave, they needed each other to survive.[/hide]