The World Wide U.S. Catch-22

[Acriku]

No offence eh? Lighten up the mood eh? Piss off ye bugger >:(

[SurlyPIG]

Emp I think you definately exaggerated and over-simplified this too much. Your starting statement was originally referring to Canada, and that's a different case than Azharbiah-whatever, I'm not gonna bother looking back. I think that people should have at least some basic geographic knowledge about their neighbours. By neighbours, I mean cultural, locational, and language neighbours. IE, know UK, Aus, Can because of the culture and language thing. Besides, this isn't a global thing anyway. Canadians are the most picky because we're right next to you, we share your language and even culture to a pretty high degree. In actuality, we don't expect you to know ANYTHING about our country. I's just a little irritating when you belive stupid stuff about us. (you saw the Bob 'n' Doug thing, right?) And I think that's the consensus of the world too.

The reason as I see it is, like somebody pointed out, your media never says "All's well in [country name here]" so all you ever hear or see about the rest of the world is either negative or satirical.

I think what you said about your experience in Germany is ridiculasly, though. Why should Germans in Germany speak English for you? If they move to the US, then and ONLY then they should learn the language, but if you go to any country that isn't English-based, expect people to expect you to speak their language just like you expect residents of the US to speak English.

[Acriku]

ACE the news isn't about giving both good and bad, it's about what makes more ratings, simple business! Truth is, everything is business - if you do it to give the truth to everybody you become swamped with the lack of ratings, your crew leaves because they haven't gotten their paycheck, then you are left on your own, probably quitting.

[SurlyPIG]

I know, that's my exact point. Good stuff doesn't sell. It has to shock people and get them to watch, or it has to affect them in some way. Like the extra coverage on the Palistinian/Israeli conflicts...this kind of stuff was happening before 9/11, but now that the American public knows what it is, they tune it. I'd bet a good number of westerners didn't even know who Muslims were before 9/11.

[Acriku]

I doubt that, but hey I know some idiots in my school ::) Woot for israeli army for trapping Arafat.

[emprworm]

Ace, I think my point is very accurate. You cannot see it because you are not on the receiving end of it. Nearly every culture on earth has some sort of demands placed on Americans. Who demands things from Canada? No one that I know of. And the country was Azerbaijan. They have demands on the US, but dont care much about Canada. Your point about neighborhs rams my point home even more. Canadians say that Americans should prioritize knowing about Canada on grounds of being neighbhors. Well guess what? Azerbaijan says that Americans should prioritize knowing about them over Canada on grounds of being ignored by the western world. To them Canada is doing just fine and doesn't need any attention of the US. South Koreans say that the US should prioritize knowing about them on grounds of our historical relationship to them and their government, in addition to the truce signed with North Korea (the war never actually ended, in case you didnt know. It's merely in a state of 'truce'). So basically, everyone makes your same argument. They all have their reasons why the US should make them a priority over others.

Canada is an isolationist nation. As far as I know, It is THE most isolationist of all western societies, giving less per capita money and aid to other countries abroad than any other western nation in the world. If they dont rank flat bottom, I know they are close. So Canadians aren't used to other countries making demands on them. Americans, on the other hand, have more demands placed upon them then anyone else in the world. And besides, like I said in my original post, I have never known anyone in my life who actually believed any of those cliches so I think they are more myths than truth anyhow. Canadians need a good laugh like anyone else does. Americans are their punch lines. Fine, no problem. We all need to laugh at something. I just wouldnt start believing it too much.

And as for Germany, you are the fourth person who's mentioned that. I need to clarify something: i CAN and COULD speak basic German. I could speak it well enough to formulate sentences and read common things like menus, signs, maps, and even some magazines. It was not the Germans I really had problems with, it was the french and the dutch. Even though I lived in Germany 2 years, I frequently visited other places in Europe. And if someone tries to talk to me in a language I can understand and I blow them off just cuz, well thats being rude, period. When people ask you for help, if you can understand them, and you turn a blind eye, then you only tell the world and yourself what a rude and sorry person you are. This is why Edric's dream will never come true. People are jerks, plain and simple.

But hey, if you come to me for help, I'm going to help you. And if I can't understand your language, i'll STILL try to help you. Thats just the kind of guy I am.

[SurlyPIG]

If I lived in Ireland, I would know lots of stuff about UK, and I would likewise expect the same from them. Know why? Neighbours...

In your first post you seemed to be talking about ALL PEOPLE. Now you're talking about world issues. Well of course everybody is going to push their issues, but your first post is just absolutely entirely false. Nobody expects THAT much from ANYONE! And anyone who actually does is an ass. And not everybody from every other country is an ass. Hanz, Petra, Igor, Joonas, Herman, Levent, Michelo, Yeruti, and Onwuamaegbu are all azzholes if they think that. Nobody expects you you to know the language of their comparatively insignificant nation just on account of you know theirs. That's ludacris! It's just false! You stated that every person from every single country besides the USA expects all Americans to know their language and leaders. Do you realize how blatantly false that is?

I could just as accurately say "All Americans think everybody in the world should learn about the USA and learn English (American dialect and spelling of course) because we are the most powerful, richest, if you dont we'll nuke you blah blah blah you should know what to say so you don't die" etc. And yes, I have met people like this. This guy in Arizona threw a huge spaz because I pronounced roof as roof and not ruff.

About the satire thing...you're as bad as anyone. Surely you've seen how the Canucks are depicted in comedy, and I have to admit it is funny! The difference is, though, that some Yanks actually believe the stereotypes they see on TV (not to the same degree of course) because they don't know and don't care about how the world really is. Just about every nation in the world has to interact with the USA in some way, on their grounds no less. The Americans themselves don't have to. It all goes back to my point of people will only know what they need to.

It's mostly the sheer lack of media on every other place in the world unless it's negative or satirical. Americans DO know lots of stuff about other countries. Unfortuneately it's almost always either bad, oversimplified or untrue.

Take this for example. A couple of weeks ago my nation's government looked at legalizing marijuana by prescription for medicinal purposes to those with chronic conditions as a painkiller. Later that day on the ultra-late show or whatever it's called (the one after Leno with Conan O'Brian) O'Brian does a joke about it in his opening standup...He says "Canada is soon going to legalize marijuana for public use. You think they're neutral now? Wait'll they're stoned!"

That said, we get the exact same brand of satire that's just as bad or worse. But we also get news and media about you so we know what to believe and what not to. That's the fundamental difference. Do you kind of see where I'm going with this? It's not that you don't know anything about other countries, it's that a lot of what you do know is either negative or wrong.

EDIT : And about the isolationist statement, I don't know what you're reading, but I don't think you got the whole story. If you're talking about private donations then yes, on a per-capita average, people in the US have more money thus give more money away. If you're talking about official government donations then you're just wrong. For money, maybe, but Canada donates its natural resources or sells them mega-cheap. We export hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grain to Africa. Our super-cheap coal is a huge asset to the Chinese economy to this day. We are also part of the UN (unlike the USA) and willing pay our minimum UN fee plus extra to developing nations.

[emprworm]

Nobody expects you you to know the language of their comparatively insignificant nation just on account of you know theirs. That's ludacris! It's just false!

lol, how can you say this? you dont know that. Besides, like I said, you are not on the receiving end of the world's demands so how could you possibly know?

I know for a fact that many non-US people actually do hold that attitude because I was first told about that by a European and it makes perfect sense. Secondly, there is a mountain of evidence, including the evidence I gave of Azeri people who have expectations that the US know about them, and this is common amongst most countries in the world. You call their country insignificant, but that would just be another gripe of theirs.

and, no, few people in the US really care what other people think of them from other countries. everyone hates the US for their various reasons and lots of people are like me, we really dont give a rip simply because their reasons for disliking us are rediculous and based upon their own ignorant supposittions some of which I described in my original post, though there are plenty of others as well.

[Anathema]

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we dislike Americans because they are so friggin arrogant? Or that maybe we don't hate the US citizens, just their moronic president? Thought so.

[nemafakei]

Going back to what you said earlier... eveyone wants a piece of the Americans, because America wants a piece out of everyone.

[nampigai]

you say that you don't care if people don't like you, then why do you start this thread? All you do is whine about how people have expectations frankly I don't care if americans know where I live or who's in our government, I really don't. but when I go out in Europe I will gurantee you that I will not find anyone who could speak my language, I have to learn german, english and french.

If we go to the US they have a popukation on what ? 300 mio and they all speak english, in Europe we are about the same amount but we all have different cultural backgrounds and language so we have to learn about each others to trade and have relations between the countries, you don't have that obsticle.

[SurlyPIG]

Ditto to Earthnuker 1000 times over...

I mean even this thread is arrogant. "Boo hoo, poor us with our global dominination, huge economy, high standard of living and complete freedoms" You're saying that the ENTIRE WORLD wants you to know about/care about them. THE ENTIRE WORLD. 6 BILLION PEOPLE COULD CARE LESS! I ask you to find ANYONE on this forum that expects all Yanks to know their language because they know English. A language takes a LONG time to learn. Everybody knows that. Nobody is that frigging arrogant! And frankly the way you speak of the entire world being against you *IS* that arrogant. People don't care unless it affects them, and because, like Nema said, you want a piece of everybody, it often DOES affect them.

Ask yourself this: Do you expect everybody on the Earth to know English? No. Lots do anyway, but you don't expect them to, do you? Now, why should they expect you to, hmm? And no, your logic of "I know theirs so they should know mine" doesn't work. Most europeans know English not for Americans, but for the Brits and the Irish. Does it piss them off when you call the French frogs, the Canadians eskimos, and the Dutch hookers? Of course it does! Just like it pisses you off when people of other nations say things like "Aint y'all gone 'n' married yer sisters?"

[nampigai]

most speak english because it's an international langauge not because of the brits and the irish

[SurlyPIG]

Uhh, no, actually. English isn't the international languge. It's the language of commerce, but of all 6500 languages, it's the most complex and most difficult to learn. It's kind of funny why it's as common as it is.

There actually IS and international language that was developed by expert linguists a while ago. It's simple, and incredibly easy to learn to speak and write. It's calles Espiranto, I think.

[Edric O]

DIFFICULT TO LEARN?? You're kidding, right?

English is a breeze. Extremely easy to learn!

[SurlyPIG]

Where the HELL have you been? The syntax is backward, there are more exceptions to spelling rules than there are words that follow them, and it has the greatest number of words of any language in the world. Ask any linguist, English is HARD to learn. Im serious...just look it up. You may think it's easy but that's because you know it.

[nampigai]

the fact that he knows english also means that he learned it.

[Edric O]

Well, all I can say is that English seemed extremely easy to me when I learned it... and look, I'm fluent in English! :)

[exatreide]

Or very very fluent in bable fish ;)

[emprworm]

"Boo hoo, poor us with our global dominination, huge economy, high standard of living and complete freedoms"

the last thing I care about from anyone in the world is their pity. dont need it, dont want it. I'm only trying to point out the logical fallacy of embracing an irrational position. Whatever kind of bully you think we are or however much you dislike us, still does not lend credence to a position that is irrational to begin with. The veracity of those accusations are a completely seperate issue.

I ask you to find ANYONE on this forum that expects all Yanks to know their language because they know English.

you distort my claims. i do not say all 6 billion people, i say virtually all nations have put demands on us. I used language and political knowledge as examples that are common. If English is your first language, then I wouldnt expect you to understand this. But for the Dutch person up in Holland who has to spend 5 years of his life learning and studying English while all those American tourists pour into his country and dont give a rip about learning Dutch, he slowly builds resentment towards them. American after american wearing their red-white-and blue T-shirts running around with their maps saying "Excuse me, Excuse me?". none of them really giving a rats #$#$ about trying to speak Dutch. So the student starts resenting Americans slowly, and surely. Why does he need to spend so much of his life learning how to communicate with those idiots when they dont give a rat about communicating with hiM? And why is English the language of commerce? Who came up with that stupid idea? And this stupid language so hard to learn. So it just keeps building. I know for a fact there are a lot of people like this, spread out all over europe. But I am not going to try to prove it to you because I dont care too. It doesn't bother me if you deny it. I know its true, because I've seen it on numerous occasions and have had it confirmed by native German friends. If you dont believe it, fine. I will not try to convince you of it. I really dont care if people deny it. I know its true and thats what matters to me.

And you too have resentment, Ace. Its obvious in your tone. You continuously use the word Yanks, which is obvisouly meant to be derogatory. You resent the US. Your resentment only furthers my point. When you cast judgment on people based upon race, nationality or religion, you hurt yourself more than the other person simply because your strength of character is weakened and you become more suseptible to being a racist. This is evidenct in Europe where some of the most indignant racism in the world exists. It is horrible over there. The easier it gets to be a racist and be bitter against someone else, the more numb you will become towards people who are different then you. If you can let go of some of your indignation, you may find more peace in life.

I dont dislike anyone, and I plan on visitng the great, and beautiful country of Canada on my next vacation. I cant wait. I guess I will not expect to be welcomed. But thats ok. I will still express my gratitutde to the Canadians for allowing me to see their awesome land. I am going to drive straight up as far as I can go from seattle, straight North until the roads are no more. Will probably be the best time in my life (I hope!) It does you no good as a person to expend needless energy in resentment.

[SurlyPIG]

Where are you getting this resentment rubbish from? My grandparents were American...Yeah I resent what you said, and I think it's pretty arrogant if you believe that of all people or even if it's a generalization, but the road goes two ways. Sure various countries expect something from America. America usually expects something from these countries too. Does this make it wrong if the US declines? Of course not. People should solve their own problems instead of "fishing for pogi" as my Newfie friend calls it...

You still havn't answered my post in TMA's thread. What AM I supposed to call you? I called you American and you got all anal and said, "The word American refers to a native or resident of the American continents." And I've always assumed the word yankee was just another word for an American - like the Canadian/canuck thing. I mean how deragatory can it be if you name the most successful baseball team after it?

You didn't mention anything about international issues in your first post...all you said was that foreigners demanded that all Americans speak english. Do other nations have expectations of the US? NO DUH! But you have expectations of them, and a lot of times you had them first. Like the whole sanction on Cuba. Or the middle-east. They expect food, you expect oil in return. How would you feel if your nations only valueble resource was being gobbled up by a bunch of rich guys, only for it to run out soon later and be left with a short supply of food? Put yourself in their shoes, man. It CAN be a pissoff sometimes.

[emprworm]

I got anal in the other thread for a reason. You were justifying the co-ercive and deceptive luring technices of Rick Mercer. Those tactics are not funny to me no matter who they are done against (and plenty of Americans do crap like that to other people). Yea it was low for me to do it to you, but I was hoping you would see how personally insulting it is to have some arrogant pud nit pick you and/or lure you into a rational trap in order to humiliate you for a few laughs. I was demonstrating to you that the antics of Mercer do not reflect the actual intelligence of someone in America. They only reflect the arrogance of Rick Mercer, and his dishonor as someone who gains pleasure from deliberately luring people into simple mental mistakes with the goal to make them look like idiots while he profits off it. Always funny to the lozer doing it, never funny to the one humiliated. So long as sleezy people like that make a quick buck by seeking to humiliate others on grounds of nationality, there will never be peace amongst world culture. I dont think you are stupid or ignorant. On the contrary, I have always considered you intelligent. ALl the more reason why tactics like that are repugnant.

You say "what am I supposed to call you?" I am an American. That is an appropriate title. And you are an American as well.

And if you want to refer to me as a specific race, call me the same thing I put in all my forms when they ask me for my Race: Human

And maybe you didnt know the thing about Yanks, thats fine. But I'll tell you that calling people yanks is extremely derogatory. Maybe you didnt know that? How could I blame you. Yet how can you blame someone for not thinking there are no moose in Toronto? I wont insult you for not realizing that calling people in the US a "yank" is insulting.

Yes, there is a baseball team named the "Yankees" and that is the only appropriate context in which to call someone a "yank"- never in the context of someone who is from the US. Its just like the NFL football team "redskins". This name is fine to call a redskin fan, but it is highly racial and derogatory to call it to a Native American.

Ace, I have known for a long time you resent the United STates. I am not going to try to convince you to like my nation if you resent it. Am I going to sit here and give you logical reasons why you should "like" us? Talk about futility.

You may resent my statements, but you have given me no reason why I should assume that you like the united states. Why do you resent my statements? All I have said is that you resent the United States. I dont see the problem. I have believed this about you for almost a year, yet I never had a problem with it. I have never had a problem with you either, despite me believing that you disliked the US. Or are you telling me here and now that you appreciate and like the united states? You have never said anything (that I remember reading) even remotely like that.

I hold this assumption about you: that you resent the United States. If that assumption is false, then tell me simply that you appreciate and like the United States and I will no longer have that assumption. But this assumption I have formulated over reading your posts for the last year. Yet I never had a problem with you. That is because I know people hate the US, and i dont let it bother me too much. I just feel bad for them sometimes because I dont think it really does anyone any good except make someone a racist, which is an unfortunate result for anyone. Please understand, I am not calling you a racist, but now that you know the term "yanks" is insulting, and that many Americans do not believe in Canadian cliche's, you may be faced with that charge by other people in the future if you so decide to hurl critical remarks at them on the grounds that they are of another nationality. A cursory reading of Rick Mercer's quotes about Americans would easily lead one to conclude he is a staunt racist. Quite sad indeed. Its so much better to look at the good things in all countries. And hopefully, before I die, I will get a chance to see many of them. But thats just me. Dont get me wrong Ace, I enjoy talking to you. I hope it can stay civil, but I am not offended by your disagreements. And no matter how many Canadians hate my country or poke fun of it, I will still love Canada and I will not poke fun of it. I have thought of moving there on more than one occasion. But I do believe I would be unwelcome (unless I went north), so I just keep it to visits i guess.

[The_Sadukar]

Ditto to Earthnuker 1000 times over...

I mean even this thread is arrogant. "Boo hoo, poor us with our global dominination, huge economy, high standard of living and complete freedoms"

As far as I konw their economy is not as strong as it used to be

[nemafakei]

"...but of all 6500 languages, it's the most complex and most difficult to learn. It's kind of funny why it's as common as it is."

It's international because it crops up in so many places. It's not the most difficult, but it isn't that easy (depends on what you're used to... ancient greek has about two regular verbs, and the rest can have over 200 forms each...) Esperanto issupposed to be very easy, especially for europeans, but it has no real hold...

[Anathema]

If English is your first language, then I wouldnt expect you to understand this. But for the Dutch person up in Holland who has to spend 5 years of his life learning and studying English while all those American tourists pour into his country and dont give a rip about learning Dutch, he slowly builds resentment towards them

First, English is easy to learn. Second, you can't blame us can you? Because the people of the world need some form of communication between eachother, they picked English as a common, second language. You can sit back and watch everybody learn your language. I would never refuse to help an American/English guy/Australian because they don't know my language. But if people get pissed, you really can't blame them.

Racism is strong in some countries of Europe, but not all. In France one on three people has racist ideas, but that doesn't mean we Dutch people are racists.

My point at the start of this thread still holds: you can't refuse help to a foreign tourist if you can help him, but if you live in a foreign country for several years you need to take care of yourself, like learn their language.