The Binladenian Jihad

[quoudam72]

And speaking of Iraq who knows what their involvement is in this whole fiasco. Saddam did come the Taliban's defense in the begining before the bombings in Afganistan.

[nemafakei]

Gherkers and commandoes should be used to kill Bin Laden and other Terrorists. Bombs should not be used unless there is far, far less risk of hitting civilians (i.e. in certain-to-be military only establishments, not in cities) - and only when it will help make for Bin Laden's killing. The Taliban and the Afghans should not have been considered the enemy.

[exatreide]

Um you need air  suport for the troops you just  cant send them in. stop with all these civian sh*t. they cared alot about are civilans when they sent those jets into are buidings. If a few of there people die so be it. no one seemed to care abot civ's when they were carpet bombong germany. Why? becouse it was helping the war effort.  I am personaly glad we  used thermo nucular weapons on Japan. If we dident Millions apon million of Japenise and America soliders would have died. Dont you people understand that we are at war?? Theres only one truth to war. People die. Get used to it.

[thomas]

ahmen ex and ex is right

[AdmAckbar]

anyone with a towel above the neck is a terrorist and this is a war on terrorism.  Pat Buchannan in 2004

[thomas]

no that is not right mr. fish head star wars freak >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( if I was a muslim and wore a turban than I am a terrorist(and no I am cacasion and christian)? no. and the guys at 7 11 wear turbans and are muslims but are they terrorists? no again >:( >:(

[Mahdi]

"If a few of there people die so be it."

Well ex, I'm glad you don't condone the deaths of civillians:)

"anyone with a towel above the neck is a terrorist and this is a war on terrorism."

Well, I guess because of the IRA every Irishman is a terrorist too, and since this is a war on terorism, lets go out and kill the irish.

Oh, yeah, then there was Timothy McVeigh, we can't forget about him.  He was a white American, which means that all white Americans are terrorists, so were gonna kill all them.

And the FLQ is a French terrorist organization, so lets go out and kill all the french.  They're also Canadian, so I'm gonna take a gun to school, kill everyone I see and then blow out my own brains.

Oh, and my mom wears a towel around here neck after she washes her hair.  Taht means she's a terrorist, so I've got to kill her too.

[exatreide]

Mahdi stop the crap.  the world is at war. that means canada too. you need to wake up and smell the gunpowder.

[Mahdi]

What exactly does that have to do with anything exatreides?

And right now, only the US and Afghanistan are at war.

[ordos45]

First of all I must say as scary as it is I must agree with Mahdi on a few thigns.

[exatreide]

by cut the crap I ment stop with all the anti war crap. Its not the us thats at war its the world. the U.K have bene bombing them and have sent there special forces. many other countries have sent there special forces. So stop with all the "And right now, only the US and Afghanistan are at war.

[Mahdi]

So lets get this straight...

Now the US, Britian, and Afghanistan are the only coutries in the world?

[exatreide]

I said many other countries. you might want to read it before you reply.

[Mahdi]

But only the US and British are fighting.  Everyone else is jsut watching, which shows taht it's an American war, for the US special forces which are fighting are not exactly the best in the world, and if the entire world was at war, the worlds best special forces teams would be the one's on the ground.

[nemafakei]

Terrorists are never going to go away. No matter how much the us (and UK) bomb the Taliban, the terrorists will stay. Most of the world also will shake hands and say 'Death to terrorism', but does that handshake cure the problem?

And if Bin Laden is killed, does anyone really believe that the Al-Caida network will dissipate, and no-one will try to take Bin-Laden's power?

And even if the Al-Caida goes down, what about ETA, the FLQ, the IRA? Once Bush has had his fun in Afghanistan (which could take years), do you think he'll go on to attack the other terrorists?

No. Because this war is about the US having a go at an impoverished nation which is protecting the one rich man who funds it. The US wants to blame someone for the attacks on the WTC, and they are taking out their anger on Afghanistan. Remember that we haven't even seen proof tht Bin Laden was behind this.

This is also a propaganda war by the US, trying to say that they are invincible. The US flags on the aid drops, the display of hi-tech missiles and planes against a remote country completely insignificant to them - what does that add up to?

As for the civilian deaths, yes, its a war, people die. Fine. But we, the world, must at least try to limit casualties! Ex says that this war is because they killed thousands of innocents - but is the 'Alliance against Terrorism' justified in killing vast numbers people in revenge?

No. War is just not the way to stop terrorism.

Terrorism is bad, but war is not the answer.

[exatreide]

Mahdi its not just the U.S specail forces. The Australians have sent there specail forces, Germany, France,Spain and many more countires have sent there specail forces. And who says the U.S specail forces arnt the best in the world? Mahdi you dont know any thing about specail forces. If You point out any nations specail forces that are better than the the U.S I will admit that you are right. War is the only awser. What do you want to do? send them gifts and say thank you for killing thousands of are people? no we must stop them. acept the fact that the world is at war. War with Terrorists and any one who harbers them. why dose  evreone think we will lose the war? you dont understand we cant lose the war. I stress this point. So unless you want to be bowing to emperor binladen i sugest you be a little more optomistic.

[thomas]

um...mahdi ex does have some good points. If you were an american you would view this differantly mahdi. and if you say no, that is not true because I live in C.A. 3,000 miles away from N.Y. and I still want all middle east terrorists to burn in he!! and they know the terrorists are middle eastern they have photos. Why do I want them dead because they made an attack on the my freedom, ex's freedom, and ordos' freedom.

sorry for the huge letters and ex what happened to yoshi?

[exatreide]

Mahdi you got to ask your self this. If you had a brother or sister or father in the WTC would you still have the same feelings? Thats how basicly america feels even if we dident lose a loved one. It still afects us like if we would.do you relize that america has over 15,000 new orphens?? with either one or both parents killed in the WTC or pentegon. Thats not counting the other countries that lost parents or loved ones.

[nemafakei]

And there will be loved ones in the civilian casualties that are caused when you drop bombs on cities. The compassion argument cannot work if you use it to condone more killing. Taliban soldiers will have families who will weep. They did not want to send aircraft into the WTC, yet they will be hurt by the 'justice' that the US wishes to meat out on Afghans. If it were just terrorists that die, fine. But fewer terrorists will die than non-terrorists. Is that acceptable justice, Ex?

Notice, trh, that I do not need big, blunt, blood-red letters, just simple logic.

[ordos45]

So stop with all the "And right now, only the US and Afghanistan are at war.  Everyone else is just trying to get better seats to watch it." crap ok?-Ex Atriedes.

I never said it was only those two, I said that they were the most public two.

My second point is that I feel the way I feel which seems to be the way Mahdi feels more or less and I live less than 100 miles from the Pentagon.  Also I go to a school named after a Senator, built by a Senator's own funds, do you think I feel safe, especially when that school is miles from one of the largest FBI Fingerprinting Centers in the United States?

Ex, you have forgotten the first rule of a debate, you never let your temper show, and frankly...it is burning enough to give me a tan.

[exatreide]

I am not angre you wouldent like me when i'm angre. err...sorry. Listen who is to say that there will be more civlain death then terrorists death_??. How do you want to stop them? Send them Punch and Pie?oh wait we tried that. They say we poison it. The only way to make them stop is with force. they dont listen to any other way. You must acept that we are at war. I am not angre i am just shocked by the lack of patrisem you are showing.      

[nemafakei]

Ex, Peanut butter and jam was sent.

They may also think that there is no other way than violence Ex. There are very few actual terrorists, and bombing cities won't kill many, but what the cluster bombs will kill is lots of civilians.

And as for patriotism, do you mean we should be shouting "Let's massacre afghans for our country"?

I cannot see where you are coming from here.

[Mahdi]

Oh, boy, now thsi is going to be fun!

I'd like the thank Ex and trh for givng me sssssssooooooooo very much to reply to, and for posting some actual arguements for a change:)

And now, here we go!

"Mahdi its not just the U.S specail forces. The Australians have sent there specail forces, Germany, France,Spain and many more countires have sent there specail forces."

They may be there, but in name only.  They arn't fighitng, only Americans and Brits, and then mostly Americans.  I amy be wrong about this, but I think only American special forces have been involved in the "ground war".

"And who says the U.S specail forces arnt the best in the world? Mahdi you dont know any thing about specail forces. If You point out any nations specail forces that are better than the the U.S I will admit that you are right."

It seems I know quite a bit more than you, Ex.  Either that, or I'm jsut less susceptable to American propoganda.

The number one ranked special forces unit in the world is Britains SAS.

The second highest rated special forces in the world is Canada's JTF.

The most highly trained snipers in the world are Canadian.

Delta Force is ranked number 3 in the world, but the rest of American special forces (green berets, etc.) are quite a bit lower on the list.

Therefore, if it was a real Wrold wide war on terrorists, SAS and JTF would be heading up the ground attacks, but niether have seen action yet, while the American forces have.

"War is the only awser."

Only because you consider no other.

"What do you want to do? send them gifts and say thank you for killing thousands of are people?"

To by quite honest, the easiest way to overthrough the Taliban would be to send gifts to the average Afghan.  Gifts like, oh I don't know, food.  And lets not forget that those people that are beign killed are not the one's who flew the planes into the WTC.  They died on the planes.  And thsoe who conspired with them to do it, well, no one know's where they are.

"acept the fact that the world is at war."

Once again, only America, Britian, and Afghanistan are at war.  Most other nations support them, but they are the only one's fighting.  If the world were at war with them, it would be over pretty quickly seeing as how the largest land army and the largest air force in the world is there next-door neighbor.

"with Terrorists and any one who harbers them."

Once again, Boston is the reason the IRA exists.  Virtually all of their money and arms come from Boston, supplied by Americans.  Anyone else find it funny that the IRA jsut decided to get rid of some of there arms the other day?  Anyone else thinking its becasue a bunch of Americans just recently decided it wasn't a good idea to be affiliated with them?

Atlanta is the home of the KKK, which is an American terrorist organization.  I don't see cruise missiles or special forces hitting houses there.

"why dose  evreone think we will lose the war? you dont understand we cant lose the war. I stress this point."

You may be able to take out the Taliban, you may not.  But you won't win the war on Terrorism.  How many times have I, Ordos, or Nema said that Terrorism is a form of combat used by organizatiosn to small to field an army?  As long as there are people who feel oppressed there have been and will be terrorists.  the only difference between them and revolutionaries is that revolutionaries win, terrorists lose.

"So unless you want to be bowing to emperor binladen i sugest you be a little more optomistic."

1)  Bin Laden does not want to rule the world, he wants western nations to leave the middle east alone.

2)  Bin Laden could never become emperor of the world.

3)  My optimism, realism, or pessimism will have nothing whatsover to do with the outcome of this war.

"If you were an american you would view this differantly mahdi. and if you say no, that is not true because I live in C.A. 3,000 miles away from N.Y. and I still want all middle east terrorists to burn in he!!"

Did I say I didn't want the terrorists to burn in hell?  Actually, I made it quite clear in earlier posts that I have no problem with the killing of terrorists.  I'ev been saying that terrorist camps should be taken out for months before the WTC attacks.  I just don't like the way they are going about it.  Innocent Afghan's arn't terrorists.  

As for my feelings, I feel that the WTC attacks were a tragedy and that the people responsible should be brought to justice (NOT vengence), but I also feel that every innocent death since them just adds to the tragedy, makes the situation even worse, and proves that we arn't any better than them.

Wow, did you know ther is a character limit for posts on this forum?  I didn't until just now.  This must be a really long message.

[Mahdi]

Part two of my above message (It was too big for one post):

"and they know the terrorists are middle eastern they have photos."

And there are no people of middle Eastern descent living in N. America?

I guess if they ahd a picture of a black guy, we'd be bombing Zimbabwe eh?

And if the terrorists responsible for the WTC attacks were middle eastern, why should every middle-eastern person be punished for it?  Thats like executing every white American because of Timothy McViegh (incidentally, immediatly after the Oklahoma bombing, Bin Laden was blamed for it).

"Why do I want them dead because they made an attack on the my freedom, ex's freedom, and ordos' freedom"

And why do they want you dead?  They don't.  They don't give a shit if Americans are dead or not.  they don't look upon individual people as important, they see groups as important.

Plus, you know why they launched the attacks?  Becasue they want the US to leave them alone and let them ahve there own freedom, and to stop forcing them to become "western" nations.

"Mahdi you got to ask your self this. If you had a brother or sister or father in the WTC would you still have the same feelings?"

If I ahd a brother or sister who died in the attacks, I'd want them dead, probably much more than I do now, but I'd still be posting the same things I'm posting now because there are better ways to do it than killing more innocent people.

"Thats how basicly america feels even if we dident lose a loved one. It still afects us like if we would.do you relize that america has over 15,000 new orphens?? with either one or both parents killed in the WTC or pentegon. Thats not counting the other countries that lost parents or loved ones."

Canadians were killed too.  There are orphans here as well.

"Listen who is to say that there will be more civlain death then terrorists death??."

Ooohhh, that raises a couple interesting arguements, but lets start witht he obvious one first.  

So far the Pentagon and Red Cross confirm that US bombings have taken out two Red Cross hospitals, and have stopped humanitarian aid from entering the country.

I don't know how many people have died int he hospitals, but I know taht because of the inability to get the humanitarian aid in, 3-4 million innocent civilians will die.  Al-Queda is estimated at what, 4000?   Common sense and simple mathematics say that there will be mroe innocent than terrorist deaths.

Now for that rrrreeeeeaaalllllllllllllllllyyyyyyy interesting point you jsut raised.

Do you really believe that the death of ne innocentis worthiwhile as long as it results in the death of one person who is guilty?

I don't think I even ahve to post the rest of my arguement concerning that, it should be self-evident.

"How do you want to stop them? Send them Punch and Pie?oh wait we tried that. They say we poison it."

As for that first post, scroll up.  As for the second part, you haven't tried to feed them, the American government is just trying to make it look like you did.  I've already posted the 37000 does not equal 4 million arguement several times.  As for the Taliban saying you poisoned it, how exactly are they going to sneak into US ari basis to poison the food when you send it down like they claim?  they are mearly using your own propoganda against you.

"The only way to make them stop is with force. they dont listen to any other way."

How exactly is blowing up a hospital going to stop terrorists?

And with all these reports of Anthrax, it doesn't look like they are listening to force either.  Instead it seems like you pissed them off.

"I am not angre i am just shocked by the lack of patrisem you are showing."

Patriotism is a double-edged blade Ex.  It's a very usefull tool for brainwashing.  Do you really think the Germans wanted to fight a second world war?  

Patriotism does not mean you blindly obey what the majority of people in your nation blindly obey, it merely means you love your country, and true patriots often prove there love of country by disobeying the leaders of there nation, whether through words or actions.

I'm very impressed that Ordos and Nema have the courage to stand up and type their opinions even though it goes agaisnt eh accepted American doctrine, and gets them called "unpatriotic".  

Bravo you two.

Well, thats enough for now.  Goodbye.

[thomas]

um...mahdi the they have photos also means they have their passports and with the atm photos they found out who they were the leader of the 20 who died in the attack was egyptian and they found the anti america hand book in his hotel room. and I don't totaly agree with ex only about 20-2% of what he says. and Mahdi why did they kill about 6,500 civillians if they wanted the US alone all that did was piss us off and have us go out and kill alot off middle eastern people in the middle east.and I agree with you that we should us SAS, delta force, and JTF to infiltrate and kill the terrorists and the base camps instead of just firing off alot of missles. and as for the IRA they are fighting for respect and independance like the black panthers and how the retard malcom x preached(MLK jr's way was better tham x's in which they did a peace ful protest which worked instead  of starting a second civil war