This was too tough to beat

[eccp19]

I played a game with this guy today. He was Atreides, and I was harkonnen. My subhouses were fremen and sard. His were fremen (although I didnt see one fremen unit) and guild. The game started off decent. We both had massive economies ( I had 4 fully upgraded refineries) anyway I built up a huge force of assault tanks to attack his huge force of minos. I destroyed lots of minos but he destroyed many more tanks :( Then I was a little frustrated so I built up another big force of assault tanks (20-25) and lots of gunships. Except he saw that I was building gunships and built many mongooses and airdrones along with his mino force. I couldn't attack his mongooses or airdrones unless it would have been a suicide mission. So now his force consists of about 16 minos, 5-6 mongooses, 8 NIAB, and 4 airdrones. Mine is about 25 assault tanks, lots of fremen and a few devestators. I attacked him on 3 different sides.

****(tanks)

(rock)

(His force))(guildtanks)

****tanks ****tanks

He completely wasted my tanks and fremen. (although I did destroy most NIAB)

The shitty part about this scenario was that his harvester field was completely guarded with snipers, kinjal, mongooses, minos, and airdrones, so attacking the harvies would be very difficult, plus his main force wasn't too far away. The game went on too long so I eventually quit and told him he won. What do you guys think I could have done differently to stop this MASSIVE force of NIAB and minos?

[GUNWOUNDS]

INKVINE CATAPULTS my friend they outranged any other unit...keep the inkvines well guarded with your fremen and tans and inkvine the crap out of his front line forces...then he will get pissed and either retreat or come after you..if he comes after you...just let the tanks and fremen do their thing

[Navaros]

Inkvines can bugger up ATR, but if he knows what he's doing, by the time he has Guild out Inkvines are not gonna help you if he has Guild tanks out.

I have never lost a game to Hark once I have Minos/NIABS out in large numbers.

Kill him before he can get those. If not, and he knows how to micro, you are dead, period. A properly Microed Mino/Guild/Air Drone army is perfectly unstoppable by Hark.

[Frodo]

but nav, wasn't it you that was saying that inkvines were unstoppable?

[Edric O]

They were unstoppable last month, Frodo... really now, don't you know how Emperor changes every time Nav gets a new opinion? ::)

[Frodo]

lol, what is it going to be next, if the fremen fedaykin had a plasma gun, AA missiles, a Sonic gun, took 5 seconds to build and only costed 10 dollars, wouldn't that make the game more balanced?

[Navaros]

I choose all my words very carefully.

Yes, Invines are unstoppable in the early game. Or for the late game if the Atreides does not have Guild.

Note: I mean when the Inkvines are being used by the *best* Hark players. I can stop Inkvines if they are not protected etc. But when used by the best players early on, Inkvines vs ATR are completely unstoppable. The only way to stop them is to get Minos *AND* NIABS out, but a smart Hark player will prevent that from happening.

[Edric O]

Well if they're the best players, don't they deserve to win?

[Frodo]

but you must remember the basic lesson of our relativistic universe, things change, any power must always meet a greater power.

[Navaros]

Well if they're the best players, don't they deserve to win?

No, because there is no possibly way to counter that strat. Trust me, once you see it done to you, you'd understand. There is *nothing* Atreides can do in the early game to stop guys like ACE using an Inkvine rush. Not one single way to counter it. *Anything* that the Atreides could possible build would be slaughtered by his Hark force due to the Inkvines, no matter *how* fast the Atreides is and how well the Atreides micros his stuff.

[Frodo]

"Brought to you by Nav, your number 1 ATR gangster!" If this was true, then wouldn't it be easy for you to counter them, all you would have to do is build up lots of mongooses and defend.

[Navaros]

"Brought to you by Nav, your number 1 ATR gangster!" If this was true, then wouldn't it be easy for you to counter them, all you would have to do is build up lots of mongooses and defend.

Buzzsaws own Mongooses. So do Sards. He doesn't *just* build Inkvines. He sets up his Inkvines amonst a balanced force for which there is no way to counter with early Atreides units. Mongooses would get pulverized.

[Edric O]

Nothing is impossible, Nav.

Unless you come up with exact figures (firepower, damage, cost, build time, speed), I have no reason to believe that what you say is true. Prove your theory by mathematical calculations and I'll believe you.

[Frodo]

there would be a way. But if it is not only inkvines, then it would take some time to build them, probably enough time for you to build a couple factorys to be able to produce enough minos to kill them. But there is nothing that is mathematically impossible.

[Navaros]

I don't know the technicalities but I can explain it in gameplay terms:

Inkvines surrounded by Buzzsaws, regular Sards, and with Assault and Missile tanks set very close to them, are impossible to get to. The Buzzsaws will kill anything I try attacking the Inkvines with. If I go in with three or four Minos (which is all I'd have this early in the game), his Assault tanks and Missile tanks would massacre them (Minos are very weak in small numbers). His Inkvines can lop toxic crap at all my Inf with no way to return fire without getting myself killed.

You tell me, *anyone* tell me, how to beat that with early game units of Atreides. There is no possible way.

[Edric O]

Hmmm, I'll have to do the maths on that and see what I come up with. But now I need some sleep...

Nav, please give me the exact number and type of units, both ATR and Hark.

[Frodo]

I don't know the technicalities but I can explain it in gameplay terms:

Inkvines surrounded by Buzzsaws, regular Sards, and with Assault and Missile tanks set very close to them, are impossible to get to. The Buzzsaws will kill anything I try attacking the Inkvines with. If I go in with three or four Minos (which is all I'd have this early in the game), his Assault tanks and Missile tanks would massacre them (Minos are very weak in small numbers). His Inkvines can lop toxic crap at all my Inf with no way to return fire without getting myself killed.

You tell me, *anyone* tell me, how to beat that with early game units of Atreides. There is no possible way.

If he can build all of that, and you are quick enough and build enough factorys, then you can easily get more than 3-4 minos.

[GhostHunter]

Nav, I want to make a piont, I played Ace 1v1, he won but not with his inkivines, oh no, I countered his early attack, and whipped every fucking inkivine he made off the map. Until next post, Vilgent.

[Navaros]

Nav, I want to make a piont, I played Ace 1v1, he won but not with his inkivines, oh no, I countered his early attack, and whipped every fucking inkivine he made off the map. Until next post, Vilgent.

was this in QM or Skirmish? 'cause i've played in a lot of skirmish games with him, and he often spends his skirmish games spanking his monkey rather than playing the game (which he admits to, he doesn't take skirmish seriously so anything you say about how you beat him in skirmish doesn't hold much weight). if he did to you what he did to *me* in QM, i'd like to know how you stopped that, because it woulda been impossible

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well... Vilgent i guess you had better ask ACE next time to not spank his monkey while he plays you since that is what people are saying he does in skirmishes...play ACE and ask him to fight for real...then people will believe uits sad u got to do that tho

[GUNWOUNDS]

[green]But i agree with Edrico and frodo that there is a counter...the time it takes to make a few buzzers and sards and tanks and missile tanks FIRST and THEN start making inkvines.....you could easily have tons of feds and minos.....and if you make a fremen hut early that is certainly possible[/green]

[Navaros]

It's hard to explain with words. If there was a way to record replays like in War3, it would prove to everyone that there was *nothing* that could have been done to counter ACE's units in that formation.

[Devastator_Mech]

Of couse your losing man, don't use that much assaults, their range are too short. Use Missiles to replace the assaults.

Heres a plan if you wanna counter any combos: build about 8 feds, 10 missiles, 5 devastator, about 3 flame tanks and inkvines.

Put feds in front of devos(not too close, because of splash damages), flame tanks beside the devos and inkvines behind it, and the missiles anywhere you want.(except missles, always keep them together)

When the enemy comes, rush the missiles towards the strongest vehicle available for the enemy and retreat EVERYTHING to the back of the devo's straight after the missiles first salvo, (if the enemy's group is mainly infantries, rush flames as well ).

The enemy's group usually should cripple already, but there's still some left overs, when they rush towards you. The devastator and feds(and missiles too if they already have reloaded) will handle the vehicles while the flames and inkvines handle any foolish infantries.(remember to put them on guard mode)

You'll only lose a few missiles, while they lose then entire group ;D ;D ;D ;D