Intellectual differences between man and beast.

[quoudam72]

That is the difference that I see and that is a very important difference as far as my opinion is concerned relating to this discussion.

[nampigai]

I don't hate humanity and I am aware that there's people ot there who do their best alot more than I could ever do, the question is when will the rest follow.

But fed who are we to choose for them?

[quoudam72]

Good question Feyd but we do not have to choose for them we do have to choose for ourselves.  :)

[nampigai]

Yes :) I agree man this thread just got my mind go wandering. It's not like I'm against pets or anything we have three dogs ourselves, it's just that, we ourselves are starting acting like gods and I don't like it or you could say that I'm afraid for the evulotion,

[gryphon]

I ones debated this issue in a group and one of the things we've said was this.

"Humans are the only spicies that's capable of deciding between good and wrong. We can make that chooise and judge others at those chooises. So therefor wu must (help) judge for the other animals becouse they can't do that themselfs. (judging in a natural way, not by OUR laws ! )"

[nampigai]

But how can we say what is wrong and right in the animal world, haw do we decide.

If an alligator or a croc attack a human would you see it as wrong the same thing with the sharks, they are feared and hated all over the world and people hunted them down and killed them cause of some attacks.

We must remmember that when we are in their inviroment we must live by their rules.

We get angry with them for killing people, well if they was able to think like we do, imagine how they and all other animals think of us, who's the real beast?

[Acriku]

Living in their enviroment doesn't mean we have to live by their rules. And what rules are these? Did some telepath get them from a shark? We are the supreme specie because we have survived, we have adapted, and we have brought ourselves to the top of the food chain.

[gryphon]

"But how can we say what is wrong and right in the animal world, haw do we decide."

That's axactly why I reacted in that "fel" manner in the abortion topic. The rules we have and live by arn't correct. The fact that a dog get's killed when he hattacks a person ( even if it's out of defence ) isn't right. The way we use animals that are almost extinct to preform medial test on isn't right.

We can deside in a way what is right and wrong, not by our rules but by the rules of nature. We are also animals and we act by the same rules of nature for a large part ( explained again partially in "abortion" ). We as humans have the abilety to "see" the difference between those things, how to survive etc. It's like playing God on a smaller scale. They can't and we can so we have the responsebilety not just over us, but over them as well.

"We must remmember that when we are in their inviroment we must live by their rules."

No, we live in the same inviroment. Ours. We have to live with eatch other ( I know this sounds biblical but mayby that's the only way to explain it. ) The other animals have to live with us and we have to live with them. Again, our rules and way of live ( that we are better than animals ) isn't correct.

Look at the laws in different country's. Humans are the "supperior" animal in all country's. We as humans have rights, we aply them to others. Animals may be used for almost evrything and the arn't in controle over their own lives. We are. Now that shouldn't be possible. The human rights ( the word on it self is racists, as a Klingon captain in Star Trek 6 correctly mentioned ) are being aplied on one group only. The inhabbitance of the county itself, the persones who made the laws. Weird isn't it. The laws are ment to protect evryone, still the strong inhabbitance have made them and inforce them over the other population. ( I als mean other humans in that country as well. As example; European laws and the laws of the USA are based on John Lock. Now he clearly states that the only persone with rights is the persone that OWNS things himself. Like money, a house, production resources and even slaves. Slaves ? Now how can that be possible if the basic human right should prohibbit this ? )

- Now this shouldn't be human rights, more fundamental animal right.

[Acriku]

We would kill a dog that killed someone else in defence because it is a danger. It could kill a baby, so we let him sleep.

And gryphon, that is why we revised the Consitution. Made amendments. Then partied, got drunk, and passed out. Simple as that.

[UsulSK]

I also thought a long time about that topic (animal rights).  And I think, yes, they should be introduced.  We are smarter and more powerfull then any other animal and therefore we should wathc over them and not hurt them.  Of course, animals should be used when they are needed for medical experiments, because humans come first.  But cruel experiment for the purpose of developping new make-up should be absolutely forbidden!  And I dont know about eating them yet.   I mean meat tastes so good!  But its kinda wrong.  But scientist believe that meat is needed in a small amount to live healthily and thats the only reason I can think of to justify killing animals for eating them.

[gryphon]

I didn't mean a dog that killed a persone. Just dogs that are agressive. Do you mean than that it's normal that a animal that could pose a treath to us humans simply get's killed ?

( mayby a bit extreem but that what was I ment with the origional post )

Like Feyd mentioned in another topic, he hunts. I don't say that's wrong but just think of it. We may kill another animal just for fun. No questions asked. Their lives mean nothing to us. ( yes, I know there are hunting rules. But they only apply to animals ?! )

If a cow is ill and is of no use to us anymore we put it to sleep. Because it's cheaper to "kill" it than to keep it alive and "nurce" it. -that was more or less the point I wanted to make.

Shure we care for the animal we have at home. But most animals we dont care about at all. And that's reflected in our laws.

"...revised the Conctitution...". I don't know that mutch about the present American laws ( sorry ). The European laws havn't changed mutch basically. It still not prommises eacual right to different people. As example; if you are not native to a country you have to work there or be "selfsufficient" in order to be qualifield as a member of the country. If you are not you are not a full member and certains rights do not apply to you. ( So you have to poses thing in order to get rights. this is the law for persones in the EU that move to another EU country, so not a persone from a 3th world country that comes to the EU )

When you are native to the country but like me a student you don't have the same rights as a persone the same age that works for his living. The basic prinipals that came from J.Lock is still pretty mutch unchanged. We've just addet rules that applied to more situations and sercumstances, not the foundation of the rules themselfs.

( I don't fully understand what you mean in your second paragraph, so mayby this doesn't aply to that because I've interpreted it wrong. )

[gryphon]

UsulSk, don't forget animals kill eatchother to eat as well. There's nothing wrong with that.

And humans come first ? I think that should depend on the question. ( the situation you're in )

Ofcourse we choose for ourselfs. Think of this; present day, we must make a desiciion, or 2 humans die, or the 2 last male and femal creatures of an entire species. Could be a hard desission ?

Personally I would say the two last of a kind die.

Morally I think I would say the 2 humans have to ...

[Acriku]

What if your mother and father were the two in question? Would you still choose the animals?

[gryphon]

It sounds cruel, and simply, yes.

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

I couldn't choose my parents to die...

[Acriku]

Jeez Gryphon. You sound like an animal fanatic. You aren't going to blow up perfume factories are you?

[gryphon]

Nope, I wasn't planning on doing that. :)

You might be suppriced but I hate Greenpeace and "enviournmental freeks". I just don't like making rules and gidelines for others and expetions for yourself.

If we do say we are animals we have to take the consuquenses with that, and not just the ones in our favour ( and vise versa ).

And I do think we ( humans ) are supperior to other animals. Not just superior in a biological way, but truely supperior that we differ ourselfs from animals. ( like mankind - animals, not humans - other animals but both animals ).

I just don't think the reasons that where mentioned here ( and in the abortion topic ) are the right ones to come to that conclusion. That's why I was against all the time ( and even now ).

[nampigai]

I agree with you on many of your points gryphon, I heard a story about a schaefer that attacked a little boy. The dog had never done such before and the family said that usually it was very great with kids. The schaefer was put to sleep, but when the vet looked at its neck he found three needles in it. This dog was killed because a little brad was torturing it.

I do think that if dogs a brought up and trained to kill, they should be put to sleep, because we have tought them the wrong thing and you can't just send such a dog to be resocialized. The dog will always be a threat. Still I think that the owner and trainer should be punished somehow, even with jail.

In Denmark there's a case with a man who sells horses to Italy, and you would think that there's nothing wrong with that, but when the are transported down to Italy they a put in a larger trailer without water or food. Some of the horses collapse, other dies. The man was not allowed to sell horses to Italy while the case was rolling but he do so throu a middleman. The worts thing that can happen to him is that he looses his trading priviliges and get a ticket, in my opinion he should be send to jail. Last year we had the same thing just with pigs being send to Germany.

Yes I do hunt but I don't just do it to kill animal, and when I shoot something I eate them. The last couple of years all I have shot is a bird called a bekkasin in danish. Furthermore I think that the animals I shoot have had a much better life than those kept in captivity.

[gryphon]

I agree on the fact of hunting ( more or less, I'm not against if or for it. My opinion is neutral on the subject ). I just pointed it out becouse the law is partially written that those things are leagel without question. The part of "without question" is the wrong part of the law. You pointed that out with your other examples. :)

[Acriku]

In America, we have laws that protect animals being cruelly treated. A cat was being starved to death a while ago, and the neglecting mother was sent to jail for half a year. I don't know the laws in Europe but US has pretty good ones.

[nampigai]

Well in Denmark such a case wouldn't even get to court, she would at most get a fee or a warning

[gryphon]

Same here. Mayby a money clame, but jail, no way.

[nampigai]

But then again in Denmark you are punished harder for economical crimes than for violence.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

[ I know if you put a fox in a place full of chickens it will go into a killing frenzy ]

LoL Yeah heck, The Fox starts running around and Suddenly (if you know Unreal tournament) You hear the Spree sound and The Announcer announces "KILLING SPREE!!! " j/k :)

Anyways a Animal Kills Because it feeds himself, Humans just kill their own species just to gain ground  and Riches,  >:( And another thing man. How can u say that Other species in the universe can be peacefull. Maybe there is a race out there that is even crueller  :-/ and looks a bit like Harkonnen that even kill their own mother or child or whatever. It can be always possible. But what are the chances that Human will survive a Alien war, We have our Tanks . m1a6 Carbine's   Gattling guns. Nuclear bombs.  etc   And the aliens have..... Well??? I dont know ???

[quoudam72]

Well what it comes down to is that we can not speak to the animals the same way we to do to each other. We can't tell what the animal is thinking or how it feels not in human terms. Do the animals have a concept of say life after death? The only one (animal) that comes to mind with life and death is the elephant. Elephants are said to have some sort of reverance for other dead elephants. In most cases it depends on the animal itself.