blacklist came up again

[Frodo_I]

Another WW site had the topic of blacklists come up, and it pertains to here.

here is the link

You have to register to view, but it's worth it

[Gobalopper]

You started the topic... why not post it here as well then? Here is the message if you don't want to register.

Because WW abandoned their support for emperor battle for dune the fan site dune2k has a member named Xvyane that has taken it upon himself to generate a winners page every month to post the top ranked players in the emperor battle for dune rankings The only problem with the list is that, AGAIN, people are using the list as a blacklist of cheaters Let me give you guys some history here Way back when WW actually HAD a forum for posting messages about the game emperor battle for dune, a guy named Navaros decided he was sick of playing cheaters and decided to help out others by generating a "blacklist" of cheaters. Well the blacklist was of course controversial, and got alot of flaming by the cheaters, or by some people that didn't cheat but were thought to have. At one point i decided to generate my own blacklist that was more dependant on data , and not word of mouth. But then i saw that Nav was being more dilligent in his list so i backed off. Well when dune2k became the official forum for emperor battle for dune players the sites admin "Gobalopper" decided that the blacklist had to go, because in a synopsis of his words Quote: the stats being used to prove cheating are not by any means proof of cheating. Multiple names under partial IP numbers also cannot proof cheating. The only way to conclusively prove cheating is to be next to the guys computer when he does it. And Nav's blacklist posts are just turning into giant flame wars. Also, Nav refused to REPOST prove of old list names (like the guy is gonna spend a week pouring through old forum posts from months past) Well now the list is back after a whole two months of exile . The same stats and IP's are being used to prove cheating, the same names are being included on the list. The only difference is that it's being generated by someone else, and if you cheat one month and not another your name only goes on the list for the month you cheated (which in my opinion is stupid. HOw many names do we have on the AZZholes page, a few of which belong to emperor players, that would have been removed the month they decided to play nice??!! ) So here's my problem with this whole thing. Gob's a hypocrite. IF your gonna ban one blacklist ban them all. If your gonna allow one allow them all. He has stated himself that he doesn't consider the data used to prove cheating is conclusive, so why is it allowed now that Xvyane is using it?? ***Side note*** Keep in mind this is the same site admin that never DID get back to me as to whether i could post urls from dune2k to here, he just decided to abstain from talking about it in hopes that i would go away, well i didn't, i posted another url here and this time it stayed cause of the overwhelming evidence i gave that the guy that was complaining about this site (TFSKiller) was full of it.

I don't know why you keep going on about this. The reason Navaros wasn't allowed to continue posting his list was because the board was turning into a massive flame war. It's not because I didn't agree with who he was adding to his list or that I don't like people posting reports of cheaters. The reason was mainly because I don't like having to read through tons of flames. I don't know if you realize this but none of the people that work on this site make any money from it. None of us had the time to deal with what was happening then nor wanted to and thats still true now.I guess you didn't notice but xyvane's list isn't turning into a flamewar like Nav's did. You are the one making a big deal out of it.And I haven't replied back to you yet because I still haven't made up my mind on the issue. WWE doesn't exactly have the best reputation but then again people are going to find out about the site regardless of whether I allow links to it or not.

[Frodo_I]

I wasn't gonna repost it HERE cause i already gave my opinion about it in the thread from Xvyane. I was just letting people know at the WSE site about the list since they are into things like that. And i was letting YOU GUYS know that i was letting them know, since i didn't want people accussing me of talking out of turn. ;DI doubt there is gonna be a massive flame war at your site about this. If anything it will happen there. But your point about Nav getting flamed and Xvyane NOT getting flamed is exactly why i brought it up.

The reason was mainly because I don't like having to read through tons of flames. I don't know if you realize this but none of the people that work on this site make any money from it.

Would it not be more consistent to say that you didn't want Nav's list cause of all the upkeep it caused your mod's, and NOT because the validity of the list was in question?? I don't want to put words in your mouth but thats what it sounded like in your post. When i started helping with the list i said numerous times that i wasn't in it for a popularity contest. I just wanted people to recognize that this "kinder gentlier" list, or a winners list disqualification thread, or whatever you wanna call it, is just a boiled down version of what Nav used to do, only cause Xvyane's makin it noone gets upset. its hypocritical.And i wasn't gonna say anything more about it here, but you asked "why"

I don't know why you keep going on about this

This is the last you'll hear from me on it here. I wouldn't wanna upset the tranquility ::)

[ordos45]

Congrats Gob, you are now a target. Anyhow, WWE blows a lot of things out of proportion. Such as the fact you didn't get back to him within a few days of an e-mail. Oh, and in case anyone wants to mention this to the WWE. Westwood no longer exists, it is EA Pacific, if I remember correctly from reading it in a magazine somewhere.

[Gobalopper]

The biggest problems Nav had was that he no longer had proof of everyone on his list and he started calling anyone who questioned him on it cheaters as well. Basically it was getting out of control and at the time the boards were a complete mess as well. If Nav would have taken a better approach, like xyvane is trying to do then I wouldn't have any problem with it.No one is getting upset because xyvane doesn't get on peoples nerves like Nav did. Nav may have worked "harder" on his list but he also pissed everyone off in the process.I don't know about you but I would rather not have to deal with the pain and suffering Nav brings to this board if I can avoid it. :)It's EA Vegas actually. EA Pacific was formally called Westwood Pacific or Irvine, can't remember.

[ordos45]

Pain and suffering, nope, prefer not to deal with it. Not a masochist. Though if you e-mailed WWE, you might want to include that.

[Frodo_I]

Congrats Gob, you are now a target. Anyhow, WWE blows a lot of things out of proportion. Such as the fact you didn't get back to him within a few days of an e-mail. Oh, and in case anyone wants to mention this to the WWE. Westwood no longer exists, it is EA Pacific, if I remember correctly from reading it in a magazine somewhere.

You are right, WW isn't WW anymore, but they still call themselves WW, IE: look at the makers of the Earth Battle and Beyond game, it says WestWood, even though they are owned by EA, and their game warantees say EA and now WW. Sound like someone is trying to live off a name to you??And Ordos, if your comment about "getting back to him within a few days" regarded my email, then please don't assume. It's actually been weeks since i first messaged Gob about WWE/WSE. And i was very patient. I'm not ranking on Gob, it's his site. I just don't wanna look bad for no reason. If your talking about another Wse/WWE email, then i don't know anything about that, disregard what i said

[Gobalopper]

I go through times of not answering email for weeks at a time. It all depends on how busy I am or what mood I am in.

[Frodo_I]

Like i said i wasn't ranking on you Gob, and i meant it. It's your site, not a congress

I just didn't want Ordos giving the wrong idea

[undsputed]

LOL, I doubt Gob is able to make a living from advertising at his site...he may have other activities going on in his life ;D You go through the trouble...and it is likely a lot of maintenance, you would think people wouldn't be so disrespectful.

Also, you are right about Nav's list being worse. There are two reasons. First of all, there wasn't always evidence when he used the word cheater...I believe he called soul reaver a cheater and I'm pretty sure he didn't. Secondly, if Xvayne were to call me a cheater, I probably wouldn't care, even if I didn't play QM. People were soo upset with Nav anyway, because of the way he treats people, that when he says something like that, it is a lot worse.

[Frodo_I]

LOL, I doubt Gob is able to make a living from advertising at his site...he may have other activities going on in his life ;D You go through the trouble...and it is likely a lot of maintenance, you would think people wouldn't be so disrespectful.

Also, you are right about Nav's list being worse. There are two reasons. First of all, there wasn't always evidence when he used the word cheater...I believe he called soul reaver a cheater and I'm pretty sure he didn't. Secondly, if Xvayne were to call me a cheater, I probably wouldn't care, even if I didn't play QM. People were soo upset with Nav anyway, because of the way he treats people, that when he says something like that, it is a lot worse.

I know about SR. And soulr reaver is NOT on the list. I still have a copy, he's not there. I think Nav "knew" he was a cheater (in Nav's mind) but he didn't have the proof, so he wouldn't put him on the list, but he publicly stated it. Again, whether Nav was the best person for the job wasn't my issue. My issue was that when Gob stopped Nav's list he did so saying Nav wouldn't provide proof from cheaters added months and months ago. In actuality the list was stopped cause mod's were getting sick of dealing with the delete key on every flame reply that was posted. THere's quite a large differene there. :(

If you want anything else on the subject you have to go to the other forum, where i posted the link, cause Gob didn't want me dredging things up here so i'm posting about it on the other forum. ;D

[Gobalopper]

Nav's not posting proof for everyone on the list was what lead to all the conflict in the first place.

[Frodo_I]

Yes it did, and it should. I would also be upset if someone was posting that i cheat when i hadn't cheated since a year ago

But what people don't realize is that once a cheater, allways a cheater. And i want to know about someone that cheated a year ago as well as yesterday. And to ask someone to CONTINUALLY post old evidence, when not only he posted it once already, but I DID as well, is out of the question.

The only thing i can fault Nav on is loosing his cool and starting to call everyone a cheater in forum (not on the list mind you). I doing so he lost his credibility

[DjCiD]

My issue was that when Gob stopped Nav's list he did so saying Nav wouldn't provide proof from cheaters added months and months ago. In actuality the list was stopped cause mod's were getting sick of dealing with the delete key on every flame reply that was posted. THere's quite a large differene there. :(

Yes since Nav didnt go and at least try to provide proof for the ppl he was slandering Gob had it removed. I really dont think it was about the ppl that he had posted proof on in the past but the ppl he wouldnt post proof of... just calling them cheaters.... like Soul Reaver [ he wasnt added to list but was said to be one by nav in many threads.... but funny thing is Soul was new to the game like 3 days new when Nav started, SR hadnt played any QM or BC yet he was labeled a cheater by Nav] I think it was stuff like that. And as a result yes the Mod (not mod's) would hit the lock thread more often.

And note that Gob was the only mod there.... he had no help from WW to delete/lock the threads, you make it sound like there where more than just Gob over there..... he took on that site since WW abbandon it.

Yes it did, and it should. I would also be upset if someone was posting that i cheat when i hadn't cheated since a year ago

But what people don't realize is that once a cheater, allways a cheater. And i want to know about someone that cheated a year ago as well as yesterday. And to ask someone to CONTINUALLY post old evidence, when not only he posted it once already, but I DID as well, is out of the question.

The only thing i can fault Nav on is loosing his cool and starting to call everyone a cheater in forum (not on the list mind you). I doing so he lost his credibility

Ok you confused me with this one.... if you agree then once a cheater always a cheater then by saying you were cheating a year ago then your still cheating now? Sorry brain hurts trying to figure that one out... didyou mean something else and im reading it wrong?

Again I agree to continually post old evidence would get redundent, but It seemed to me that it wasnt Not posting the old evidence of past proveen cheaters, but the requested evidence of the new ppl he was slandering everyone wanted... and he just ignored those request. And Flames upon flames, upon a big heap of burning text got widly out of controll and the ONLY mod nipped it in the bud.

[zamboe]

WWE doesn't exactly have the best reputation but then again people are going to find out about the site regardless of whether I allow links to it or not.

Gob, What can you tell us about WWE's reputation ?

[ordos45]

Know I'm not Gob, but there was the Westwood Lawsuit against them.

[DjCiD]

yeah, i remember hearing something about a lawsuit aginst them (but at the time there name wasnt WWE) I think because of it they had to change name.... but I'm not 100% sure so dont quote me ;D

[Gobalopper]

I don't know much about them but I haven't heard good things. Some of the people who run the site seem ok but there are also some who spend too much time trying to find more bad things to say about Westwood. Personally I don't really like the site but they do have some valid points, I guess its the way they try to gets those points across I don't like.

[Frodo_I]

If i may, i've been going to WWE/WSE for a little while, and heard alot. Get cozy cause this is entertaining but long. First off, you can read most of what i post here and more by clicking HERE. You DO NOT need to register to read at that link or any of the others i posted in this reply ;D

The OLD site used to be called WSS (westwood studios scum) which started mainly as a "blacklist" (ironic isn't it) site, posting proof of cheaters (maxpovver and ace1gold are still on the page here's the link. Hence the "scum" in WSS meant cheater scum

The guy hosting WSS became quite proactive in trying to end cheating. He actually went as far as doing what Nav would like emperor to do, writing emails cataloguing all the cheater names, the cheats/bugs used, ways of preventing the cheats, and in some cases actual code to stop the cheating. At one point Westwood was quite actively courting the admin at WSS for more and more names and programs, sending emails, offering "shwag", etc (he posts actual emails from WW on his link above).

Slowly, after months of emails, the guy saw that WW was not only doing NOTHING about patching the games, but people at WW (Mary Beal & Tim hemple) were actually using his names/catalogues/copied programs to further their advancement in WW studios by showing how they were "dealing with the situation". Furthermore, WW refused to link WSS because they felt that his "cheaters" list was anti WW, showing all the cheats used and the cheaters using them threw a bad light on WW. At that point the guy decided to turn the direction of WSS into a site that continually asked the question "why not support the games?", and did so using proof in the form of emails from WW, copies of programs VERIFYING that they actually exhisted (which ww said they didn't), etc. :O

Shortly afterwards, the site admin as WSS found out V-Ted (Ted Morris)'s WW information (ie phone number and office mail code) and posted it on his web site for complaints. Within days of posting that info he was banned from all ww servers (both his name, and any other names he makes) for over two years now. >:(

WW went even further by "tipping off" the WSS site admin about an article where it says that WW is suing his site. WW never sued WSS, but the article says they did, obviously they were sending a hint. Here's the article sited HERE ;)

At that point the guy got paranoid and shut down WSS. He shortly afterwards opened WSE, Westwood Studios Exposed, which does NOT focus on helping westwood stop the cheating, but focus's on alerting potential/current customers about WW's pist poor support, their lack of commitment, and their attempts at complacency (see the post i made about WW, Cliff, and Chris) >:(

WSE is actually doing VERY well, at last "cleanup" they have over 300 members, and it's less than 4 months old (i believe) :O, they also have a huge message forum that supports all ww games including emperor, a few people including myself have posted on the emperor forum ;D

The part about WSE that generates controversy is that they post hacks and cheat programs used to show/prove that the programs exhist, that they are used, and that WW does nothing about them. Until reciently the site admin allowed anyone that wanted to download them. Reciently the WSE admin noticed alot of people just coming for cheats, which is against what he started the site for, so he's now restricting access to the programs. The access to the programs is now on a case by case basis. 8)

[Mahdi]

Hmm, he got banned after posting the real name and phone number of a westwood employee without permission on the internet for people to complain to. That sounds fair to me Frodo. No wonder westwood is pissed at him.

[DjCiD]

ok but what was the deal with WSS hacking into the WOL servers and knocking everyone off or something like that, which brought up the issue of the lawsuit? I remember hearing something about that... dont know how much is true but was just wondering if anyone knew?

[Frodo_I]

Hmm, he got banned after posting the real name and phone number of a westwood employee without permission on the internet for people to complain to. That sounds fair to me Frodo. No wonder westwood is pissed at him.

I never said it wasn't fair Mahdi. Look if you own a company you can refuse service to anyone, for no reason at all. Thats totally legal. You guys asked what the history of the site was so i gave it

As a sidenote: I would personally agree with his decision to post the Ted Morris info on his site since there's nothing wrong with posting info that the company would give anyways. Thats why they couldn't "make" him remove it by the way, Ted's info was available already if you knew where to look. IN THAT CONTEXT, i can see the admin as WSE getting pissed at his banning, and feeling it was unjustified ;D

[Frodo_I]

ok but what was the deal with WSS hacking into the WOL servers and knocking everyone off or something like that, which brought up the issue of the lawsuit? I remember hearing something about that... dont know how much is true but was just wondering if anyone knew?

For the best information about this you should register on their forum and then IM the site admin, thats the same guy that got the threatening email about a possible lawsuit.

If you wanna take my word on it, from what i heard the "lawsuit" that never came was alledging that WSS was providing programs that could be used as bots on WW TibSun servers, bots spam, spam can knock people off if a bots used a certain way. Also, WSS used to allow download of a name hack program, which could make people feel that WW disconnected them since they wouldn't be able to log on if someone stole their password. Ask Gunwounds, he knows about it.

[undsputed]

What would gunwounds know about that ;D

[DjCiD]

So WW said they were gonna sue and never did? This a post from the link way up *points* there in frodos first post.... and here is the link to the article if anyone wants to see it but heres post too (for lazy ppl like me ;D) http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/consumer/2001/oct/11/512474639.html

October 11, 2001

Company sues website hackers

A Las Vegas video game software maker sued several unidentified individuals, alleging they hacked into its website, disrupted its online services to its users and allegedly threatened physical harm to its employees.

Westwood Studios Inc., which produces entertainment software such as Red Alert 2 and Emperor: Battle for Dune, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court, alleging the defendants caused its clients' computers to crash or lock out or be disconnected from its website without warning.

The suit said such attacks have damaged Westwood's reputation and affected the company's ability to meet previously scheduled releases of several new products. Westwood said it had to assign engineers who had been working on products scheduled to ship in 2001 to deal with the attacks.

And since WW never saw the lawsuite through we will never know if this guy and his company did hack into WOL.... so its just he said she said? Well enuff bout that...

IMHO- WW dug their own hole, now they can lie in it. They made some good games and even a great game {EmpBFD ;D} but with no support or what ever thier reason ::) the company seems to be on a downward spiral. Oh well, I'll still play Emp every now and then, I mean it is a classic ;D so as long as they dont remeove it from their servers I hope to find a game now and again.