Religion

[ordos45]

ok, the Dune and Christianity thread was going just a little off topic so, I decided to make this new thread for the religion arguements about to break out there.  SO go ahead and post your views on religions, your religion, etc.  and this time maybe we'll not have a flame war!  ;)

[SalliatheWitch]

Honestly.. I don't think I mind ANY religion THAT much... Christianity and I have a few problems between us that'll be worked out soon enough... I'll accept any religion as long as I see it has love in it. o.O It just pisses me off that they say "Love thy neighbor" and then become hypocrites by saying not to be friends with non-Christians. Really, it was all to cover up and control the Celtic and other religions, which also pisses me off because the Old religions were there first, and Christianity started as a cult in our terms back then. How did THAT end up being the major religion over the world..? If I saw more love and acceptance and less criticism of other religions (As you might've guessed, I'm a Witch... And according to Christianity, I'm in league with the "devil" who was created off the Celtic "horned god" or Lord of the Hunt. o.o) And I know I myself am criticising Christianity myself right now... But isn't that what this thread is about, discussing points of religions etc.?

[ordos45]

ok, yes thats what this thread is about, discussing religions.  SO do you believe that Christ birth was just to cover up the Celtic holdiay of Yule?  Or that Christianity is bad because of the whole sheep and sheperd thing?  Or are Christian holidays just covering up for all the old ones?

Now if you want my history book's POV on Christ aka Jesus aka the Son of God aka the Lamb aka the 1/3 Holy Trinity aka Emmanuel...you get the point.  It says Jesus was a man who gathered only a dozen disciples and spread that he was the SOn of God and the Savior that Israel had waited for.  He was then arrested as a political criminal and hung on a cross, a common punishment.  His 12 disciples mourned for him, but not many others cared.  (According to my history book)

I would like to say that yes I am a Christian and I am not afraid to admit it, however due to the fact ym views do not always coincide with the little old church ladies (and the Minister insists I cheated in our card game) I think that they may label me as a heretic eventually.  TOlerance for other religions outside Christianity can sometimes backfire in your face if you don't play it just right.  I do believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that he died on the cross for us to forgive our sins, that on the third day he rose again from the grave and ascended to Heaven.

[SalliatheWitch]

My question right now is if Jesus even existed. Yule is probably my best example here right now. The Celtic holiday of Yule celebrates the birth of the God, and the bringing of light. Interesting, how, after the Christians arrive, it's not Yule but CHRISTMAS... Celebrating the birth of Jesus and his bringing forth the light. They say imitation in the sincerest form of flattery...But in this case, I just find it wrong. All they did for that holiday was change a few things and slap Jesus on it...

[ordos45]

I do believe Jesus existed because virgin births are possible and because I believe in the Lord.  (Note a surrogate mother who is a virgin being implanted with an embryo would be considered a virgin birth in a way.)  Now, there are a few things throughout history I do not agree on with the church *hears the cries of heretic* such as the Crusades, the whole burning and torture of even suspected witches, wars fought amongst Christians, etc.  But you just don't slap someone onto a holiday and rename it.  

Let me ask you two things, since we're the only twot hat seem to be up right now to aruge.

1. What about the martyrs that were willing to die for their faith?  If you know your religion is flase, as the disciples must have known in your mindset, then why sacrifice themselves?

2. Second in my questions is, how could Christians transform this Horned God, a being of light, into the embodiment of darkness?  I mean yes Lucifer is a fallen angel but he is the Great Deciever as well.

Oh and about the cult thing, I believe the term Sect was used in most history books and documentaries.

[SalliatheWitch]

In response to the Horned God... The Horned God, or the Lord of the Hunt, taught people not to indulge too much in food, drink, sex, and of the sort, because they wouldn't be appreciated after a long time. The Christians took this the wrong way apparently, and said that he really WANTED them to overindulge in those things, which lead them to "temptation"... About the martyrs... How would they know if the Church was lying to them about which religion came first? The heretics that believed in the old ways were killed off (mostly, at the least, or were converted.. More than likely by force for most...), and since most of them were probably not born early enough to see that the Old ways were there first, they were lied to as a cover-up by the Church and all of it's officials. Chances are, if they discovered what had **really** happened about the beginning of Christianity, I doubt they would've sacrificed their life for it. If they DID find that out and still did,  then I would've applauded them because they even though there were beliefs that existed before theirs, they stood true to what they believed in.  And of course, I know there are ways to become pregnant without having sex... Doesn't everyone, really? Interesting enough, on Yule, after the Goddess gave birth to the God, she went back to the phase of what was known as the Virgin Goddess. The Goddess and God have three stages, but we'll focus more on the Goddess right now for comparison of Mary. On Midsummer, the God and the Goddess become pregnant... The God dies, signifying the decreasing of light in the days and more darkness and cold. The Celtic New Year, Samhain (Halloween), the Goddess is preparing for the long nights ahead, and is in the stage that is known as the Crone.. The wise, elderly woman, of course, but she's still pregnant with the God. On Yule, the Winter Equinox, the Goddess has the God, and because that is a time of new beginnings and more light coming forth, she is back in what is known as the Virgin stage.... Kinda odd with Mary being a virgin as well, ne? Also, thank you for the correction on the subject of cult/sect.

[ordos45]

Where is Edric when you need him to help you out?   ???  Anyhow where to begin, funny how you mentioned the three stages of the Goddess, it sounds very familiar to me, did I mention that I have a passing interest in Greek Myth?  Sounds like the Fates sort of.  Halloween is not a Christian Holiday really, and turst me I have gotten that lecture enough times over the years, but really it used to be much more of a big deal.  Now its just give me candy or I'll cuss you out, it used to be that some people celebrated Halloween like you are saying, however even in colonial America the holiday was frowned upon because it is known as the "Witches or Devil's night".  FUnny considering her in the EST I am posting this, argueing with a witch durign the "Witching hour"  

However all of that sutff is pretty interesting, I do occasionally study other religions and I have yet to find something that COmprehensive about the Goddess on a Wicca site, yes I do look up stuff on Wicca...  and as I've stated before the word heretic is pounding in my skull.

THe time I gave a speech on how we should share God's love to everyone and focused on evangelizing Mormons and Wiccans I was literally wrestled off stage.  Never ever start a speech to a bunch of sleepy and grumpy teen Christians with the words "Carpe Noctem" (Sieze the Night), especially if its around 1AM.  However they did have a right to pull me offstage, before you use that against me or Christianity...I'd been droning on for twenty five minutes and they still had one more act before it was time to go back to the cabins.

[nampigai]

In Denmark Christmas is still called jul, it's pronounced like yule, and I think the church used many of the pegan holydays cause it was conveinient for them them, and it made the old religion disapear. when there wasn't any holydays to ceabrate their deities. Well as for Jesus ever have lived I'm sure of it, I think all the evidence is there, wether he's the son of god is upto the single person to beliefs. But Ordos45 when you talk about martyrs I don't agree, it's possible that they believe in what they are doing, but I don't think that you can use it as an argument for christianity. You just have to look to Israel and you'll find lots of martyrs, but they aren't christian, they are moslem, that don't make me a moslem. As for tolerance towards other religions, well I think of myself as being tolerant, but I don't think that moslem and christians or what ever could live perfectly in harmony. There will always be someone, who'll destroy it. Take the US for an example, as a result of the plane crashses many moslems are now looked down upon, so much for harmony. Or you could go to North Ireland, they are all christians, but catholics and protestans, and there isn't much harmony there. Religion is a dangerus subject wich starts almost every war today.

[UsulSK]

I have major problems with all kind of religions and especially christianity.  OK, lets just assume that everything that is written in the bible is right and that there is a god.  BUT HOW CAN YOU LOVE SUCH A DICTATOR???

Honestly, every human who would behave like the christian god, would be a tyrann.  I mean he sends people to hell FOREVER (which is much worse then death sentence) just because they dont believe in him (even if they would be "good" in any other way).  

Then god cant be perfect, because perfect things dont change, but god changed big time from the old book in the bible to the new one (Im german, so I dont know the exact englich names).  First he was an "An eye for an eye" god who punished everyone and killed whole nations and then he began talking of "forgiving" and "loving your neighbour".  

So that is basically my main criticism.  I go with Satre, who said that there is no god and thats why all the men are truly free, because they have to give themselves a meaning for their lifes.

[nampigai]

Hey we all love Leto II ;D

Well hell is something the church inventet to scare people into believing but I see your point.

[Edric O]

I spend a great deal of time discussing Religion on other forums, so before we can even begin I have to clear up a few misconceptions:

1. NOTHING in Christianity comes from wicca or any other old European belief. It is based 100% on judaism. The only things that are indeed related to wicca are the traditions lacking any foundation in the Bible. Christmas, for example. If you read the Bible carefully, you'll see that Jesus was most likely born sometime in spring. The present date of Christmas was chosen in order to "compete" with pagan festivals in a time when Christianity and Paganism were competing for followers.

2. It is NOT universally accepted by christians that belief is the only thing that saves you. In fact, only PROTESTANTS believe that. The majority of christians say that belief won't help you unless you're also striving to be a good person.

3. Christianity NEVER persecuted pagans. We did persecute jews and moslems in the Middle Ages, but not pagans. Why? Because there were no more pagans! In fact, all of them were converted to Christianity by peaceful means. They WANTED to convert. This is what gave Christianity political power! All the barbaric states formed after the fall of Rome were PAGAN at first! The pagans held all the military power in Europe. Obviously, a forced conversion wasn't even possible.

All the "witches" burnt at the stake were christians. Witches no longer existed by the time the burnings began.

Now we can talk.

I believe wiccans should listen to their ancestors. They converted to Christianity en masse by their own free will...

UsulSK, compared to God we are less than unicellular lifeforms are compared to us. It's amazing He thinks about saving us at all! Not only that, but He showed His infinite love by dying for us. Think about it - dying for someone is the greatest act of love possible. What more can you ask for?

We are insignificant creatures! And the reason God sends those who don't believe in Him to hell is the evil nature of the human race. Humans are inherently evil. That is obvious, just look around you! Murders, destruction, WAR! And the reason is the Original Sin.

P.S. Yes, in this discussion I prefer to write in blue... Earth Blue (as opposed to my usual Ordos Green)

[nemafakei]

I accept that some guy called Jesus did exist, and he played up to the scripture myths. He claimed to be the messiah, preaching things that would get people's attention. But I have found no good argument to say that there is some God, some purpose other than biological.

I also accept that some slaves managed to escape from the Pharaoahs, and out of desperation, they needed something to depend on - their religion was that.

As to visions and things, hallucinations based on preconceptions of religion, which many humans depend emotionally on, often when in trouble. Sometimes, their questions seem answered - I account this to subconscious decision using such imagery to imprint the message on the consciousness.

I celebrate at christmas. I believe in things like mince pies, cups of tea, not omnipotent, omnipresent beings that are supposed to be good, holy and infalliable, yet seem more like cruel sadists. It's no better than believing in the undead and monsters living in closets.

It's also all very well preaching love thy neighbor as well as thy enemy - but look at N. Ireland! They're all christians, and they still kill each other! It's ridiculous.

Martyrs don't 'know', they believe that what they do is right. That is why they do it. Since humans in general have been superstitious for some time, most have yet to break the habit, and those who are very religious may well consider it better for them to die.

I also think it is interesting how people do good things are promised rewards in heaven. This sounds like an evolutionary survival tactic (do what's good for the tribe and you'll be rewarded, no matter what - and no-one can prove otherwise). Furthermore - it suggests that people should do things for rewards, not simply for being good. I'm generally a nice person, not because I think it'll get me a decent afterlife, or to praise the aforesaid 'supreme being', but because it seems sensible.

[ordos45]

Ok Edric I tihnk I should warrn you that Sallia and I have argued before, she's most likely goign to use the arguement that witches are around today and were around back in the middle ages.

[Edric O]

Nema, being a nice person without any particular reason is ilogical. You don't have any reason to be a nice person. Religion is a good example of such a reason.

God - a cruel sadist? Well, let's see, what kind of twisted psychos are WE for killing innocent creatures for no other reason than the fact they exist? Think of flies, bugs, spiders... not to mention those of us who actually kill much more "evolved" creatures and even other humans.

The Apostles died as martyrs. They also claimed to have seen Jesus alive after he died. Now why would they die for a lie? Surely they weren't hallucinating THAT bad. If that was the case they would have been too insane to even speak coherently!

It is sad that many christians don't really get the meaning of "love thy neighbour"... or they convienently ignore it. :(

You see no reason to believe... but do you have any reason NOT to believe? Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? If you're an atheist, you're in a lose-lose situation concerning death. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, you still end up bad (either non-existant or in hell). And being a christian does not affect your ability to live this life in the way you like (unless you're fond of stealing and killing, which I doubt). It can even improve your life. THIS life. So what do you have to lose?

Furthermore, if there is no God, then the most important thing in the Universe is LIFE. Knowing that, we should proceed to exterminate ourselves, as we are the greatest threat to life on Earth.

[ordos45]

God or Gods?  Or none at all?  God is not a cruel sadist, we humans however can be.  We were made in God's image, but then we had to listen to Satan and eat the wrong fruit, thus the orginal sin.  

Love thy neighbour is the hardest commandment to obey because we anger to easily and let our lips talk before we think.  Loving your greatest enemy is extremely hard, I would have to call myself hypocritical whenever I get amd at someone.  Yet we know we're forgiven for our sins already, but that still doesn't make it right.

Let me give a hypothetical situation.  A person accepts Christ sincerely and then goes on a killing spree to rid the world of, lets use witches for an example.  He/She is then captured by the Police and sentenced to death, but if they truly accepted Christ they would go to heaven, their transgressions already forgiven.

TO expand further on the witch burning thing, paranoia can get to everyone.  Also it would be an easy way to get rid of someone causing you problems.

[Edric O]

Well Ordos45, the argument you just described is a very weak one... I'm sure she must have something else to back her claims up.

Modern wicca is a very new Religion. There is NO continuity between paganism and wicca. Why? Because hardly any descriptions of ancient paganism exist! If a modern wiccan claims continuity, then he'd better show me some ancient or medieval documents describing wiccan rituals in detail... The thing is, all we have are incomplete and subjective Roman writings.

Don't tell me all those medieval witches who supposedly existed never wrote anything down!

[Edric O]

Ordos, I disagree with you. You said:

"Let me give a hypothetical situation.  A person accepts Christ sincerely and then goes on a killing spree to rid the world of, lets use witches for an example.  He/She is then captured by the Police and sentenced to death, but if they truly accepted Christ they would go to heaven, their transgressions already forgiven."

I'm an Orthodox and I believe that such a hypotetical person would go to hell. I believe that people who believe in God but don't do their best to follow His Word are hypocrites and their sins are not forgiven unless they repent and decide to follow the Word after all.

[nemafakei]

Universe creation: You assume that there was nothingness before - but I say there never was a before. Furthermore, I have a personal reason - knowledge; being nice to people is useful, if you want to put it into harsh terms, and this gains me more knowledge as people are more prepared to help me. Anyway, the universe is not yet fully understood; I think it could be spherical (also temporally) - but with time and space distorted that it is compressed at either end, and less so in the centre.

Omnipotent being: How? What does it represent? What is it's makeup?

We're cruel to other animals: And THIS is precisely why such a god must be a sadist. To allow, indeed, to create such cruelty cannot be the work of any benevolent god.

Atheist's Lose-lose: The end happens. It happens to us all. I'm not going on chance - and besides, if I went christian just to get into this 'heaven', that itself would not be good reason, and so there would be no admittance anyway.

And I don't think I want to take up religion just to improve THIS life for two reasons: Firstly, it won't happen, and secondly, it's effort wasted that could be spent actually directly making it better for yourself and for others.

"we are the greatest threat to life on Earth"

Well, yes, but there's no chance we'll wipe out all of it. As it happens, I think we'll stagnate and die out anyway, perhaps killing ourselves in our pollution. But the thing is that a polluted world will spawn new species that can live in the new environment. So life continues.

That assumes life is important. I feel we're just bags of overexcited chemicals. I see no reason to doubt that.

Bxg6

[ordos45]

That does make more sense doesn't it?  Let me give you a second hypothetical then.

Someone has an affair but never repents in it even though they believe in Christ, would they go to hell?

Oh and for one other thing, I should try reading my bible more often, unlike certain people I know in r/l I do not have a bible verse for each occasion, btw I'm baptist.

[Edric O]

Nema, God didn't CREATE us the way we are now (evil). He just gave us a choice. And we chose to be like this. God doesn't like it, but He did not create the Universe or us so He can have a puppet show and pull everyone's strings!

There was no "before" the Creation... PRECISELY! God is atemporal. He created time. He is not affected by it. If you'd ask me to describe the nature of God, I'd say He is the infinitely complex "structure" that exists independent of the Universe, "outside" it in a way, but also permeates the Universe, being everywhere all the time. As He is infinitely complex, He is also what we would call "alive"... and beyond! Infinite intelligence and control over the Universe, which was created by Him. Don't ask me when, because time applies only inside the Universe. Therefore, Creation "happened" (pick any tense) all the time and never.

When Moses asked God about His name, He said "I am who I am". That just about says it all... His name is "I am"

[nemafakei]

I read my bible often enough. And note the mistranslations (in the new testament at least). One of them is 'The Word'. ho logos does'nt mean word usually. It's much more often one of: story, speech, tale, argument (my favourite), discussion, idea, etc.

"Don't tell me all those medieval witches who supposedly existed never wrote anything down"

Don't tell me those wo opposed their existence allowed anything they did write down to survive!

[Edric O]

Don't tell me the Romans ever allowed the writings of rebellious religious sects to survive! Oh wait... their efforts were in vain.

Same applies to medieval witches. At least SOMETHING should have survived. Besides, isn't it a little too convenient that all the records of their existence were supposedly lost?

I might as well claim that there was a great ancient civilization in... let's say Gaul. And this civilization built great cities and wrote thousands of books, as well as flying machines. But everything got destroyed by the Romans...

Would you consider that a legitimate hypothesis?

[nemafakei]

This posting at the same time is annoying.

"He created time" I still don't see how this is proven. The only way it works is if the universe IS god, and so whatever we become defines him, NOT the other way around. That is an interesting thought, but it would mean that he has no influence among us. UNLESS, 'god' is another universe close to ours (I don't mean chrono-spacially) that affects us (most probably without purpose), as we affect it.

"Nema, God didn't CREATE us the way we are now (evil)" But he must have known we'd turn out that way, unless he could stop it. Besides, he allowed us to be evil, so if he wanted us to be good, he would just have changed our composition. Therefore, he condones all evil. Problem for religious types?

His name is "I am" - I never asked for his name. (Isn't it spelt YHWH, anyway?)

[nemafakei]

"I might as well claim that there was a great ancient civilization in... "

That's changing the scale of the organisation from none to a massive amount, and the likelihood of remnants is obviously much greater. Plus, where are the romans now? In the Eurozone, that's where. The christians, however, have been carefully putting down witchcraft for years, and still do so. I wouldn't consider your story legit hypothesis. Conjecture, perhaps. It's certainly more baseless than the witches one.

[Edric O]

Why do you assume that the only thing that can exist "outside" the Universe is another Universe?

The fact that He created time is just a logical deduction - if He created the Universe, He also created time.

As for God condoning evil, didn't you read on? I explained that He obviously doesn't want us to be mere puppets. He wants us to be free. And so he gave us free will, which implied allowing us to do evil if we wish.