New Mod

[Kingpin]

the freeze tank...

[Desert_Eagle25]

i dunno....i was hoping jacob or u could figure it out...lol ;D

[Kingpin]

Lol, it should be possible, after all the vertical worm does stop units in their tracks for its meal. Not sure where to find its critical functions though, might be hardcoded somewhere.

[Kingpin]

I've been doing some thinking, and I think I've got a basic tech tree description, if anyone is interested.

Starting first things first, you have the Great Houses (Tier I units) which hopefully will remain more or less the same or with slight modifications to the original. I'm really pushing for that since I think the original was suberbly balanced and I still want to keep all units in the mod relevant.

Then you have the basic five Subhouses (Tier II). It gets a bit more interesting here because that is where the first extra units appear. The Subhouses will combine with each other AND with the Great Houses to create approximately two new units per Subhouse.

Here is where it gets tricky, because the Tier III Superhouses are going to be at the height of the tech trees, three of them, each a combination of two Subhouses below it.

There will be TWO Tier IV Superior Houses, each a combination of Superhouses, each with two units, probably very powerful infantry.

If you do the math, that's going to mean that there will be combinations of Subhouses and Great Houses that are deadends, no Superhouse, no Superior House.

That's where the hidden units come in and the remaining two hidden Superhouses. The hidden units and rogue Superhouses represent a parallel tech tree.

On top of that, there will be three Superunits available only to the player that captures another Great House tech tree.

Cumbersome and complex I know, also time consuming, but the hidden variables should really ensure that no game ever plays the same.

[Desert_Eagle25]

i got lost at tier III.... ::) :P

[Desert_Eagle25]

oh, like the building ideas?

[Frodo]

I've been doing some thinking, and I think I've got a basic tech tree description, if anyone is interested.

Starting first things first, you have the Great Houses (Tier I units) which hopefully will remain more or less the same or with slight modifications to the original. I'm really pushing for that since I think the original was suberbly balanced and I still want to keep all units in the mod relevant.

Then you have the basic five Subhouses (Tier II). It gets a bit more interesting here because that is where the first extra units appear. The Subhouses will combine with each other AND with the Great Houses to create approximately two new units per Subhouse.

Here is where it gets tricky, because the Tier III Superhouses are going to be at the height of the tech trees, three of them, each a combination of two Subhouses below it.

There will be TWO Tier IV Superior Houses, each a combination of Superhouses, each with two units, probably very powerful infantry.

If you do the math, that's going to mean that there will be combinations of Subhouses and Great Houses that are deadends, no Superhouse, no Superior House.

That's where the hidden units come in and the remaining two hidden Superhouses. The hidden units and rogue Superhouses represent a parallel tech tree.

On top of that, there will be three Superunits available only to the player that captures another Great House tech tree.

Cumbersome and complex I know, also time consuming, but the hidden variables should really ensure that no game ever plays the same.

That is an excellent idea! Do you think that i dould use it for a future project?

[Apollyon]

sounds very cool

u should probly draw it up properly tho

as in Ordos Hark ATre

; ; ;

IM FR TL GU IX IM FR TL GU IX IM FR TL GU IX

; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

or whatever (sorry diagram is a bit vague :))

[Kingpin]

As I said Frodo, mi casa est su casa, use whatever works that you want. I'd be more than happy to see a Mod you create with those concepts. As far as a diagram...hmmm, here it goes.IM GU IX FR / / Bene Gessirit Smuggler/Mercs IX + IM / CHOAMNotice how IM and IX are used twice...Now you might think that this means that the Imperial and IX Subhouses are greatly overpowered, but in reality, it is not. Also notice how the Tlieaxu are not used once for a Superhouse. There must be some reason for this...In reality though, there are offshoots, the hidden units, which through proper experimentation and insider knowledge could more than counterbalance the weight of even a Superior House. For instance, the Ixian Fighting Mek is gained by a combination of IX and one of the Great Houses, but it cannot be created by either of the other two Great Houses, even if they have House IX. IX + A Great House /Ixian Fighting MekAdded to that, a captured tech tree will give you TWO of the 3 Superunits that can fight even the most sophisticated Superior House on equal terms. For instance, an Ordos player that captures an Atreides player will have both the Ordos Superunit and the Atreides to commit to the final battle against the remaining players. Then there are two 'Rogue' Subhouses that may be gained from virtually any combination of Great House and Subhouse, if you go through the correct procedures. That is important as the Rogue House you do find and build will determine the Superior House that you may have. So the Superior House stackup is like this...Any SuperHouseBG/SM/CH + Rogue House #1 / Superior House #1BG/SM/CH + Rogue House #2 / Superior House #2I will eventually release most of the information regarding who gets what, I just want more room to manuever so if a unit doesn't work the way I want to, I have some flexibility in restructuring the Mod.Right now I have about 12 updated and new units for the Great Houses, plans for 5 hidden units, 3 Superunits, 10 Subhouse units, 10 Superhouse units, and 4 Superior house units...the limits and incidentals permitting.

[Apollyon]

as my mod is pretty much finished ill have a go at that fremen hunter guy

[Apollyon]

nah the fremen just sits there

and when he reappears later if he appears on rock then he gets submerged by it and it just doesnt really work :( .

If u can find a script that makes units attack other units then fine otherwise it wont work

[Desert_Eagle25]

ook, now i get it. So that whut u mean for ur mod. Ok, i already finished my mod with apollyon, but thats a great idea, ur like super human dude :O

[Kingpin]

hmmm, Now that I've spilt the beans about what I want to make, I'm sure there are questions about how(?) I feel confident making a claim that I can. There are two ways to hide a unit or structure in a tech tree and many variations on the theme, but two distinct paths. I like to think of them as sexual and asexual production, for the revealing metaphor that implies as much as anything else, but it is an accurate description.

For asexual production, simply go through the Primary, Secondary, and UpdatePrimary functions through the limited breadth of the tech tree (what a term!) i.e. this structure gives you that, that combined with that over there gives you this, these two added together and upgraded give you this. Its quaint, could be complicated, but mostly straightforward; keeping in tune to my early metaphor, consider it self pollination of a tech tree. An earlier thread of mine covered it in depth.

But what if you wanted to HIDE something???

I mean, really HIDE it. The way that you could look at a puzzle all the while never guessing that the puzzle itself exists, much less a solution.

Again the answer is both familiar but strange as well, as there is no clue of it from the original game. Hybridization. The term horticulturists and geneticists use to describe the reproductive mix of two 'races' to create something completely new, a new path.

Two ways to do this, both I've already touched on so obliquely, that mix the characteristics of the two ingame species, the structures and the units.

But they both revolve around rank. A curious fact is that by gaining rank, you can modify just about any function in the body of the unit. You can attach weapons and turrets, set speeds, health, give it special abilities, etc. But the turret aspect is what is most important here, because you can also apply rank to turret STRUCTURES. The vital intersection which we seek between the species, because that allows us to alter the BODY of the structure and hence NUDGE the whole tech tree by leaving some LATENT ability within its rank structure. What I mean is that by giving the Turret structure a rank, you can hide within its rank an Upgrade = True function. Now if you set the turret itself as the Primary building to build a second structure with a UpgradePrimary = True requirement, you will never realize that branch of the tech tree exists UNTIL you BUILD that turret and that turret GAINS rank and then you can UPGRADE it. Confusing I know, but if you take the time to consider the possibility, you will realize how formidable, and how rewarding!, such an approach could be.

As well, the Mobile Wind Trap and MCV could be harnessed to meet such a goal as well; MCVs represent another complete hybrid, a unit that 'builds' a structure. Perhaps even here the turret aspect could be avoided as perhaps the mere inclusion of the MCV family could be enough to hide a divergent path in the Tech Tree.

[Desert_Eagle25]

super human ideas.... :O :O :O

[Kingpin]

Keeping in mind with the above...I lied, sort of.

Each of the five Subhouses are going to be given a notional gender. Two 'male' (with the turrets, the ultimate phallic symbol) and three 'female,' using the standard method, and the combination of any female and male Subhouse will be fertile, giving the Superhouse that the 'female' Subhouse codes for.

But, ahhh, the combination of two Female or two Male Subhouses? A Rogue House. As well, the combination of two Great Houses, the second Rogue House. I'm, in the interest of speed, putting off the Superior Houses for now, too complicated and really of dubious consequences in any case.

By Diagram, which is a rough, btw...

Male

FR

IX

Female

IM

GU

TL

Fertile Couplings

IM+FR

> Superhouse #1

IM+IX

GU+FR

> Superhouse #2

GU+IX

TL+FR

> Superhouse #3

TL+IX

Infertile Couplings

IM+GU

IM+TL

Rogue House #1

GU+TL /

FR+IX

Captured Great Houses

AT+OR

AT+HK > Rogue House #2

HK+OR

[Desert_Eagle25]

i just dont know how u goddamn do it. ::) :O :O :O ::)

[Kingpin]

Thanks, DE. That was the hardest part to pin down...the theory of the mod. All of my special units are falling to pieces though. Apollyon attempted the Rogue Fremen, our attempt to replace the Sandstorm with something more tangible, but that didn't quite work out. Hmmm, perhaps we could replace the surface worm instead, and I would understand the potential protestations, but maybe we can compensate for that somehow. For instance, in the books, spice blows were violent catastrophic events and ALWAYS attracted worms. Maybe whenever a spice blow appears, an analog to the surface worm or better yet the Vertical Worm, Shai Hulud, might also.

[Desert_Eagle25]

spice blow? u mean those bubbles of spice in the spice fields in E:BFD?? whenever u walk on those u get dmged

[Apollyon]

no we cant replace the surface worm w/ a fremen guy (same problem w/ scripting = the fremen will try to swallow units! ;D) and we probly shudnt nyway

[Kingpin]

Right, and its actually supposed to be a BLOW! and not the pathetic whisper it is. Slow their frequency, doubly redouble their damage and it would be another natural disaster worthy of replacing the Sandstorm or even the Sandworm. I just wonder if the one can spawn the other? Could a spiceblow trigger multiple catastrophes? A horrendous explosion followed by the consumate appetite of a Sandworm? I think not, but then....

[Desert_Eagle25]

no we cant replace the surface worm w/ a fremen guy (same problem w/ scripting = the fremen will try to swallow units! ;D) and we probly shudnt nyway

whoa..that be kool!! rreplace the worm with a fremen dude!!

Name it a 'Rogue Cannibal Fremen'

lol

[Kingpin]

Hmmm...maybe you're right. It was worth the effort, and I thank you for that Apollyon, even if it was a wild goose chase.

[vidiware]

This looks really fun!

Do you need any help from me?

[Ghosty_Square]

Kingpin let me congratulate you on the making on one of the greatest mods. Many of the newer mods (including Chapterhouse) are so UNORIGINAL!!! They just add units. But this one seems amazing. Keep up the good work.

[Apollyon]

hey Kingpin gimme something to do! :)ill make the futar if u want but it just doesnt seem a particularly logical unit.Oh and i dont know if the mod has a name yet but how about Emperor: War of Assassins ?