Politician shot down

[ordos45]

Say what news are you listening to?  Because I was watching it less than five minutes ago and Bush is still sticking with that plan.  He'll sign the treaty and then the US Senate will have  the final word on it.  God I can't stand when people don't know enough about other country's politics and make themselves sound like idiots.

As for the US being immoral it is.  I used to have a drug dealer live next door.  But look at our television at least.  Unlike most European nations we don't have fully naked women selling beer in commercials that look like porno ads.  

The Netherlands is a very peaceful place.  Its like Switzerland when it coms to politics and wars, nuetral for the most part.  That makes a country great.

As for Bush's character.  I would have been more impressed if he didn't go bunker ot bunker and actually went to help with rescue efforts at the World Trade Center or the Pentagon.  I think a truly great leader will put aside personal danger in order to help preserve the lives of his or her people.  Fleeing to a bunker reflects badly both on a nation and on the leader.

[gryphon]

"killings of politicians are normal"

That totally depends on where you live. For you it is, but in a lot of places it isn't normal. The Netherlands is one of those places.

Although we are neutral about most things all the time, that also has a lot of friction in our own country. We never have a guy really saying anything, never are there any desissions beeing made that WILL last for more then 2 years and sutch. It is great, but it does have it's downsides. We arn't the worlds Utopia over here ;)

"It is a small country that minorly contributes to the world"

you could have waited for it, and yes I do quote you on that. ;)

How do you messure first of all what we contribute, does this include knowledge and economics.[ Heiniken, Phillips, "aqua engenering" contrubutions to the UN / UNHCR ] Mayby even the world famous "polder model" that your president [ Bill Clinton ] has learned from our prime minister Wim Kok and is now using in the USoA ?

Or just a big military force.

"A great nation isnt always a good nation."

Then the "Taliban" could be a great nation ? They certainly beated the "greates" nation in your point of view.

"great nation is its military strengh"

Unlike Ordod45 I don't whant to know what news you are looking at. I personally more interrested in where you've been to school ? ;D

[ don't get me wrong. It is partially true ]

Just rememberd this. Luxemburg [ a verry small country just below The Netherlands ] has recieved the Nobell peace price, not one persone but the whole population. Now I didn't see "all the people of the United States of America" with there "big and powerfull country that contributes heavely to the world" recieve one ::)

I wouldn't mind to keep this discussion going, but this might not be the correct topic for it, should we start a new one ?

[TMA_1]

All great nations used other nations for materials. Rome molded their mythology from the greeks, Their artistic endevors were from as I said before, the greeks. Tactics of military were conjured from many cultures. They never really had any creativity. They just used older principles to build on.

The holy roman empire copied itself after the byzintine empire and the roman empire. There was no real change except for the fact that christianity was a much more dominant belief then the christianized roman empire after constintine.

America was founded on philisophical ideas of the enlightenment. They contributed little new to the world. Mainly science and technology. Though this wasnt as much as other nations contributed.

New ideas come from little people not from big nations. its just how it works. Great nations arent good. Great nations use, kill, steal, destroy to get what they want.

in the 21st century, the muslim nations are not that  great. Their power is mostly in oil. Many of these nations are rich but have a poor military. We decimated Iraq in a matter of little time. They arent Great nations.

Great nations have a lasting influence on culture and history. The great muslim empires that sprang out after islam was created did many great things from the blood of millions. germans under the nazi party is one that will always be remembered as well. Their technology was vast and was all created with blood filled hands. America is another. Its "manifest destiny" ran across the north american landmass. Killing millions of native populations. We made war without a cause with other nations.

In the grand scheme of things, america will be remembered as a great nation but not a good one.

politicians rise and fall but in the grand scope of time it doesnt matter. I know what I know and too many times people come to judgment before they understand. Idealism is insane and shows the downfall of the human race.

Sound pesimistic? I am.lol I just know what will come in the future and have no worries for the present.

[gryphon]

It might sound strange but I don't really disagree. I have some remarks to it but mainly that's my opinion about it. Not really important here.

But with remarks as these

"Great nations have a lasting influence on culture and history"

how can you deduce this to where you said that a big and powerull militairy force is all that matters ?

"politicians rise and fall but in the grand scope of time it doesnt matter."

What happend in The Nerherlands is not simply a politician that isn't anymore. It's the verry first "political liquidation" we have had here in Holland in a long, verry long time. Just as the impact of the murder of J.F.Kennedy. Now he isn't just a president that we all have forgotten. And yes, also in those days leaders of country's where murderd, just not American Leaders so that made it big. Now it's a political persone in our country. That makes it big for us. And no, not to the USoA. But then who said that every thing in the world has to be important to the USoA ? Who made the United States of America the messeurment for the rest of the world to be messured by ?

He was the first persone who got liquidated [ mind the word, it has been chosen for that reason / meaning, "murderd" wouldn't cover it ] for saying his opinion. And tell me, was M.L.King just a "ordenairy" and "yet another simple" American persone ?

[burseg_candor]

a politician is but the messanger for the government

that government is what is important!

[TMA_1]

"New ideas come from little people not from big nations."

MLK and others were assassinated for a reason. They should not be mourned for their death but celebrated for what tehy have done to better us.

[gryphon]

"a politician is but the messanger for the government that government is what is important! "

Not in Dutch politics and our government. Here the government is a representation of the people of the country. The Government is for the people, of members of the poeple. It's not a higher institution that has to prevail. Our country with it's citizen is the important thing. The members of our government are at the survice of the people.

[ well that's the most ideal situation, and although it's not exactly like that, it is the idea and almost current situation behind it. ]

We [ I ] arn't morning for any one [ Pim fortuyn in this case ] with this topic. It's about the political situation and how it has changed with the liquidation of Pim Fortuyn.

Our politician has also been assasinated for a reason, he stood up for his opinion and has been killed for that. And that situation hasn't accured in The Netherlands in a long time. And that those situations are common in your part of the world doesn't mean they are with us. So this topic does have a point and reason. But it's not yours, it's ours.

And still, from your earlier post TMA_1, how can you get to a position where the militery force of a country / nation is the only thing that matters ?

[Terror]

I don't mourn either. It was a shame that he got killed... but now it's getting out of hand. People who cursed at Pim Fortuyn 2 days before he got killed now cry for him... it is realy stupid..

[TMA_1]

Because in history its majorily all that matters in how powerful a nation is.

[ordos45]

All that matters is its strength?  Some of the greatest inventions and ideas in the world came from people who were weak militarily compared to their neighbors, and conquered.

[gryphon]

"Because in history its majorily all that matters in how powerful a nation is."

How do you messure that "power" ? you did by reffering to the military, all that matterd is a big and powerfull army.

But as Ordos45 mentioned, power doesn't nesssaraly have to come from the militairy force of a nation.

So I think the question still stands. How can you say that all that counts is how powerfull the military of a nation is, regardless of any other aspects of that nations that could be more powerfull / important ?

[Terror]

well as you may know.... military power is no longer realy based on conventional weapons like soldiers and tanks only... it's the nuclear weapons who are the threar now. both the US and Russia have the power to destroy the world :-(

[Anathema]

Recently the USA and Russia have agreed (again) to reduce the amount of nuclear weapons. The USA tried to make this treaty voluntary, wich would mean they wouldn't have to abide by its terms. Fortunately Russia wouldn't have that.

[Caid Ivik]

Yes, but these countries are based on christianic morale, so they will never use them. But we can crush this morale, if we'll be too liberal.

We have democracy. If you Dutch want to have unite world or many small nation-based countries controlled from economical centres in USA or Germany, tommorow you have votes.

[Anathema]

Why would christian morale stop the USA from using nukes? It didn't stop them from medling with other countries politics and give weapons to people who would listen to them.

And what about those crusades a few centuries ago? Those were christians out to kill muslims.

Yes, but these countries are based on christianic morale, so they will never use them. But we can crush this morale, if we'll be too liberal.

We have democracy. If you Dutch want to have unite world or many small nation-based countries controlled from economical centres in USA or Germany, tommorow you have votes.

What do you mean?

[Caid Ivik]

Don't try to teach me in history. In medieval times muslims devastated whole christianic north Africa, Spain and Middle East. Crusades were nothing against these brutes. I thought attacking Church by crusades was part of only communist atheism. I know that Koran, and Bible too are against violence, but muslims were even more brutal in their expansion. What do you think? That Jerusalem was part of Arabia from no time? To 8th century it was christianic, and whole Syria and Lebanon too!

And what about Turkish expansion in 16th century? After fall of last asian christianic power, the Byzance, Arabs weren't doing anything other than attacking the Europe. Come to Hungary, Slovakia or better to Serbia. Here you can see, what they've done! And then say something against US morale!

[Anathema]

It's true that muslims haven't been exactly very friendly towards christians in the past, and have commited atrocities against them.

In the short time after Mohammeds dead muslims were actually very friendly to non-muslims, and if there were christians or jews among them they treated them well. Their friendlyness wore of though...

And most muslims are extremely poor. Easy for us to say we have more morale when we surround ourselves with luxury.

And Arabs are not Turks. They even fought against eachother. The Turks were the more violent ones.

The christians have also committed atrocities. Just think of the colonisation of America (or any other former colony).

What I meant to say is that Christians have also committed atrocities, despite their christian morale.

[ordos45]

Umm, every major religion on Earth has had slaughters by its followers.

And the Muslims weren't too bad at first, yeah Muhammad conquers the Arabian Peninsula, but he was mainly a man of peace.  He considered Christians and Jews as sort of like faith cousins.  Then we have civil wars, expansion, Crusades, etc.  The glory days of Islam being peaceful are over.  Go to any American Mosque and there is a great chance you will hear talk that could be considered treasonous during a time of war.  Islam has gotten more violent as it got older, and don't think that its just the minority.  If u go to the US allies of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia their kids are taught to hate from birth and that becoming a martyr is the best way to die.

[gryphon]

I forgot which it was, [ thought the Islam though ] but they clearly state that it's there duty to convert the enrite world population to the only right believe.

Some people I know who go to The Arabics frequently sometimes notice this ideaology in there actions, but then again, goint to the right place you can find any believe. .. . .

[Anathema]

But the christian religion also seeks to convert the nonbelievers. In the past we even forced our religion and ways on other people. Such a thing cannot be justified.

But the muslims still do it. But most of them have no education or decent income so they turn to religion.

[Terror]

well... the historian is here. Muslims weren't as brutal as the christians. The christians organized crusades to capture Jeruzalem so they say. But in fact it was more about the money and the "glorious" battles that they organized this. And after they captured Jeruzalem they killed every muslim that walked around there. While when the muslims captured Jeruzalem back they accepted the christians to live there and they were allowed to keep their religion. That is quite a difference in tolerance i'd say. And btw... Christianity was very very brutal in south america. They slaughterd thousands, if not millions of people "in the name of god and christianity". They demanded ppl to become christian so that they would get a clean death. Otherwise they'd be tortured. Also they betrayed the Aztec emperor by capturing him and demanding money. When the ransom was payed they killed the emperor....

so talkin about tolerance and brutality i think christianity is a whole lot worse.

[Caid Ivik]

How it is possible, if they were so kind to christian as you're saying, that there are nearly no christian communities in Arabic countries? Bosnia, Turkey, Syria... these countries were systematically assimilated and islamized. You should convert or die. You look like arabofil, but if you're American, I accept it. Saudis are your big ally!

Conquistadors didn't wanted that gold "in the name of God". Spreading the christianity was only a curtain over their true mind - they were materialists and thieves, the Catholic Church was nothing there. This was used by many others in the past. Today you can see, that no one from euroamerican civilisation isn't killing others "in the name of God". But I can't say this about muslims...

Also Earthnuker said:

"And most muslims are extremely poor. Easy for us to say we have more morale when we surround ourselves with luxury."

Euroamericans also have done something for it. It wasn't stolen or received as gift, but made by hard work of our fathers! It's on us to honor them and use our power well for the whole world. Which other civilisation has done such progress as ours?

[Anathema]

I don't believe in birthright. We have the responsibility to help people who live in poor conditions care for themselves.

[Terror]

i'm not an arabian nor an american.... i'm just plain dutch. And yes. I am sure i'm right. I did a study in this and made report about this for school and I got compliments for being so close to the historical facts. It is true that Christian priests ordered soldiers to kill those "heithens" (or however you spell it).

here an example: A christian priest ordered the (i believe Incan) emperor to turn christian and showed him the bible. The emperor looked at it as it has never seen a book. But then threw it away because he didn't understand it and wanted to keep his old religion.

What was the result? The emperor and all his people there were brutally murdered because they didn't bow to "the right god". And ofcourse there aren't any christians in Jeruzalem anymore because the christian community didn't grow there. No one wanted to migrate to that place since it was surrounded by their enemies the muslims. And the christians who DID live there grew old and died i guess... i don't know... the only thing i do know is that the christian community in that place didn't grow

[nampigai]

you aren't entirely right, there's Plaestinian christians, and many christian churches in Israel,. Just look at the Church where jesus where said to had been born in Bethlehem.