Dune II micro is balanced?

[Cm_blast]

I never paid attention to the ranks or score, but I always get the "ruler" on mission 9, so the only time I got the "Emperor" was something new to me.

But I don't remember exactly; the first time I played this game was the old Dune 2 version, which the enemy send their units one by one (except foot units), so maybe I got the ruler rank in other missions too but I can't tell.

The mission that took me 8 hours wasn't the one that got me "Emperor" so I don't remember if I killed that many units that time I achieve that rank. Was years ago, but I remember only loosing 2-3 scouting trikes as Atreides. I don't know if the Fremen killing or dieing count as well.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Cm_blast

[X3M]

I don't know for sure either.

[MrFlibble]

Ruler of Arrakis is the highest rank in v1.0, with Emperor and some other rank (forgot which) having been added in v1.07 above it.

I remember always getting the Ruler of Arrakis rank in the last mission no matter what in v1.0. I completed it several times with all Houses and never set the objective to get the highest score possible. I can't confirm this but I had the impression that Dune II actually sets a minimum rank for each mission so you probably get worse ranks only if you fared real bad in a mission. C&C is a lot more strict in this respect, lots of casualties will result in bad score.

[X3M]

c&c score is linked to the mission number. The maximum is 100 times the mission number. Not only that, but doing an entire mission with only one combat unit will increase the score by another 100. I once finished GDI 14 with only the mammoth, resulting in giving me 1500 as final score.

Dune 2000 follows the c&c example.

I think that Dune 2 score, when calculated right. Is one of the fairest scores out there. Getting points for making kills and harvesting spice. Losing points for the mission time.

[MrFlibble]

On 09.12.2017 at 10:12 PM, X3M said:

c&c score is linked to the mission number. The maximum is 100 times the mission number. Not only that, but doing an entire mission with only one combat unit will increase the score by another 100. I once finished GDI 14 with only the mammoth, resulting in giving me 1500 as final score.

Actually I remember that the maximum score totals up to 200x the mission number. You get a max 100x points for "Leadership", which is how many/few casualties you got, and up to another 100x for "Economy" - I think Nyerguds explained to me that it's calculated based on how much money you had at the end of the mission versus the starting amount.

Both can be shamelessly manipulated, e.g. if you sell all your base buildings prior to completing the mission both your funds and the number of men will go up, and IIRC the leadership thing is calculated as the percentage of units lost to the number of units at mission end. Hence as you get infantry emerging from sold buildings, the casualty ratio will go down if only just a bit.

[X3M]

So far, my original C&C95, and Nyerguds version. Have given me "mission number" x (50 x %efficiency + 50 x %leadership) + 100 x "commanding only 1 combat unit".

This explains the 700 points in GDI 6. But will also provide any player 1500 points in GDI 14, if played with only the mammoth.

I am certain of the GDI points.

[MrFlibble]

I ran some quick tests with the DOS C&C demo, and checked some external sources (YouTube videos). It appears that the max score is indeed 200x the mission number, but when Leadership and/or Efficiency are below 100% it doesn't directly translate into the amount of points awarded.

I completed the first demo mission with keeping all units alive and spending no money, and got 200 points, 100% Leadership and Efficiency. After that I re-played the mission and deliberately lost one unit and spent 900 credits out of 2,000 provided at the start. This resulted in 95% leadership and 55% efficiency, but the total score was 182 and not 150 as could be expected if the formula were simply Leadership% x n + Efficiency% x n where n is the mission number. YouTube videos and screenshots from others playing show similar results for other missions too, i.e. there's no direct translation from L + E into points, these variables seem to have different weights.

Finally I played the mission so as to use only one Hummvee, and did not select any other units at all. This did not yield any extra bonus for me, the score was still 200 points.

[Nyerguds]

On 09/12/2017 at 8:12 PM, X3M said:

Not only that, but doing an entire mission with only one combat unit will increase the score by another 100. I once finished GDI 14 with only the mammoth, resulting in giving me 1500 as final score.

Hmm. Interesting idea, but you got the logic wrong. defining what "doing a mission" means is far too complex. But, you may still be on to something...

See, efficiency in GDI missions, plain and simple, is 100% if you end with at least as much money as you started with. In Nod missions, however, I noticed that efficiency is related to the amount of enemy structures destroyed. The less you have to destroy to win the mission, the more efficient you were. The GDI Leadership stat might in fact be related to that, if it counts how many units you produced to win a mission, possibly balanced against your losses. And in that case, your observation would make sense.

That said, there are some really weird logics in the score, and I never really looked at how the game keeps statistics and derives the score from it. (this also means I never, ever tweaked that code, so comparing with "my" version is rather pointless )

[MrFlibble]

I know we're going off-topic here but since my previous post I ran a few more tests, but so far can only confirm that apparently the game does not take into account what kind of units you lose for calculating leadership for GDI (as opposed to some games where each unit is assigned a score which is added or subtracted when tallying the ending total).

UPD: For GDI mission 1, losing one unit results in 95% leadership and 4 points off your score. The Leadership percentage seems to be counted towards your starting number of units, as it didn't change when I produced some additional Minigunners.

UPD2: I also squandered all credits available (lotsa power plants on that Baltic coast) and ended up with 0% efficiency but it only "cost" me 28 score points as the ending score was 172. I wonder how this is calculated after all.

UPD3: Lost 2 infantry men and leadership went down to 90% and score to 192 (with 100% efficiency), which means 4 points get knocked off for any unit lost, at least in GDI mission 1. The mission gives you ten Minigunners and two Hummvees plus the boat and the MCV (not sure if the latter two count though), so theoretically one unit should be more than 5%.

I'm starting to think that maybe this is all simpler, let's say the developers created a table of some sort with predefined percentages, like if you lose 1-5 units leadership goes 5% down for each, if 10-15 it's 3% down (I'm assuming they don't want it to go into the negative with too many losses). At least, this would be much easier to implement than to count the proportion of losses to the number of starting units, especially since any more units produced apparently are not tallied. Same with score points, they'd start with max score and subtract points for losses and spent money.

[X3M]

Your gdi 3 score is weird. 90% leadership and 100% efficiency? It is a base mission with harvesters. This means that you should have less efficiency, right?

[MrFlibble]

On 25.12.2017 at 8:24 PM, X3M said:

Your gdi 3 score is weird. 90% leadership and 100% efficiency?

You got it all wrong. All tests were run on mission 1. Updated numbers only show what I added to the post, in case someone read it while I was making updates.

However you can perfectly get 100% efficiency in any "mission with harvesters". You only need to have at least as much credits as when you started. The dumbest way to do that is to sell your buildings just before you end the mission.

[X3M]

I see. All on mission 1.

Further, I never managed to get 100% efficiency by simply harvesting it all. Later on I heard from Nyerguds, that only Tiberium in refineries and silo's count. But that would go against selling all structures. Either way, both ways didn't work for me.

---

I have been combining 2 tests. Only 1 harvester and only Raiders.

Raiders make short work of combat tanks. Almost as if they still have their damage as high as trikes or even quads. But they have so much more speed. And of course less health. They ehm, remind me of something that you see a lot on cncnet.

[X3M]

You guys!!!

I have found out that turrets are very weak against a small squad of raiders. That said, the requirement is the death of the CY and all Refineries. So repairs will stop after a while.

This test was in mission Ordos 5, where the Harkonnen are down left.

It was a cakewalk compared to mission 4. With just 1 harvester, I made a wall of turrets myself and placed my repair bay all the way in the back. Only used some quads to hunt out for enemy Rocket Launchers.

The whole map got explored without losses. And all enemy units can be lured by attacking 1 structure and immediately retreat. Easy task for a Raider.
You need only 4 raiders (5 if you are using a mouse) for taking out 1 turret (not to confuse with a rocket turret).
The Raider that gets attacked by this turret has to immediately retreat again. But 4 Raiders in total is all you need to take out 1 turret.

I took them out 1 by 1. Starting with the one at the bottom right. The refinery was already gone. The second turret was the one just south east of the outpost. etc. etc.

The last 2 turrets, right above the WOR, where taken out by 2 rocket launchers that I borrowed from the Atreides.

 

PS. What is this?

http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Dune2.html

That website looks awesome.

[Nyerguds]

On 26/12/2017 at 10:25 PM, X3M said:

Later on I heard from Nyerguds, that only Tiberium in refineries and silo's count.

I think you misheard that... might have been in relation to CarryOverMoney / CarryOverCap. I never checked this, but I once theorized that the unused CarryOverCap might have been to actually carry over tiberium stored inside silos rather than cash money.

Though ModEnc describes it as a maximum value for CarryOverMoney, which makes a whole lot more sense. The cap is never used in C&C, and that allows you to carry over rather ridiculous amounts. Wouldn't be the first time I let a mission overgrow on max speed and harvest it all a couple of times, to start the next mission with something like 200.000 credits

Edited January 3, 2018 by Nyerguds

[X3M]

Yeah, I think I immediately tested that. And I concluded that you had a different version seeing as how I did get the money without storage as well. Never reported back on it though to reconfirm.

Build Ref, cancel Ref, Build Ref, cancel Ref. etc. That is how I got plenty of cash for the next mission.

---

I finished Ordos 6. I only killed like 130 units. Lost 0.

And I used only 1 harvester
Offence was 1 missile launcher and 4 raiders.
Defence was a wall of 14 rocket turrets at a distance of 10 from the enemy base. With the given link, I think you can guess the map.
Reserves where 50 combat tanks for 120 each, such luck

Defeated the enemy after only 5 hours apparently.
Then I emptied the map with another 30 harvesters. You get them for each refinery, after reaching the 99 limit?

Yes, that was all I need.

My score was around 950. I suspect a bug again.

Edited January 4, 2018 by X3M

[X3M]

I prepared mission O-7

By planning ahead, I once again discover new things. That might or might not be known to this community.

All Rocket Turrets, starting Harkonnen units, the CY and WOR's have been removed.
I have the second island to the right as well, filled with slabs.

The removing of all key structures was been done by borrowed devastators. I also tested the +1 to the north range. Actually, in the right angle, you have +2 range. I noticed how the devastator was shooting the rocket turret at a range of 7! I used some math as well to make sure. Could it be that the turret exit of the devastator is used instead? Or is it because it was an aim to north west in an angle of about 45-30 degrees towards west (10:30 - 11 o'clock) So you have several factors working together to get +2 range? I hope someone can test this too, just to back up my claim. Because it sounds so absurd.

8 High Tech are ready to launch Orni's for finishing the mission. I tested this and new Quads also fire at my Orni's. Even the devastators try. So far, the orni's are not shot down by them...yet.

My losses counter at the safe is still 0. I have about 3k in spice. And 2/3th of all the spice is still available on the map. If you only build a wall of rocket turrets. You don't need much spice any way.

I cannot get more harvesters by building more refineries. Apparently this has to do with the flying in carryalls and the 8 orni's that are almost ready. Somehow, I get the feeling that the Harkonnen stop producing when their harvester isn't returning. So I devised a plan to keep them doing so. I like killing devastators and quads (the only 2 units that are build).

Since I can have only 1 harvester. I am going to fill it up. And instead of returning, I will blow it up on the map. Seeding the map with extra spice. I serenely hope that the scorched surface will still supply with spice. I think I will look for a couple of places to do this.

While my counter for losses is on 0. The counter for kills is on around 130. It gives me about 900 points. I want to return to this mission occasionally for blowing up my own harvesters and keep the enemy sending stuff. Just to see if I can break my 3k score limit. Although, how many devastators and quads do I have to blow up for this? How many points do they supply?

I can't find the points in the given link. I'll search this evening. I am sure somewhere is the information that I need.

[Nyerguds]

On 04/01/2018 at 1:01 PM, X3M said:

Build Ref, cancel Ref, Build Ref, cancel Ref. etc. That is how I got plenty of cash for the next mission.

Or helipad if you can. That one's even faster since it's a $1500 building that builds at the speed of a $300 one  (refinery is a $2000 one building at the speed of an $800 one. It's relative to the selling price, which has the price of the spawned unit subtracted from it)

[X3M]

Then you must mean $600 as speed. To bad that helipads are GDI related only, and only in later missions.

 

With my experiments on Dune2. I got into a little bit of a problem.

I managed to reach 1149 points, and going on with that AND sacrificing harvesters. My last score was only 1123 points. What is going on here? Is the time penalty increasing? Or is the AI getting slower?
Does losing units also cost points? If so, then sacrificing harvesters is a bad way to go
Searching for useful links.

I do have reached about 65 units already. And it is getting harder to get additional harvesters. The sacrifice of harvesters is slowed down by having to much units. So, if I want to gain greater heights with this, I need to have absolutely no other units except of those that I get at the start of a mission.

Next time, no extra units. Also no ornithopters ready to launch. Simply a heavy factory that pushes out extra harvesters. That way, relying on the Starport is less and less slow.
But the score is the problem, if this doesn't get fixed. It has no use "cheating". Still, getting from 900 to almost 1150 is a lot.

[X3M]

Question 24 on this site provides information.

https://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/564691-dune-ii-the-building-of-a-dynasty/faqs/1521

I lost units (harvesters) on purpose. But also had a lot of harvesters.
Not only that, but the mission timer was at 1:30 at the beginning. And I am now at 2:30 with the last report. The optimum was at 2:00.

So, that is not a good way to go. Only if you NEED the spice, you can do this. But if you NEED the points. Go and stop at that 3k mark that I have as a safe point. Don't launch the orni's. But instead wait until the enemy runs out of steam. Then attack and leave the refineries.

To bad that the harvesters are going to be dropped at random locations. Unless I build rocket turrets at the enemies base.

Hmmmm. I think that should be my next experiment. Reload the beginning. And simply try that.

PS.

The provided link contains a lot of little mistakes as well. I wonder how trustworthy it is.

Edited January 13, 2018 by X3M

[Nyerguds]

On 1/13/2018 at 3:40 PM, X3M said:

Then you must mean $600 as speed. To bad that helipads are GDI related only, and only in later missions.

No... helipad costs 1500, and the helicopter on it is worth 1200. So the cost of the actual building according to the game is only 300. Meaning, it builds as fast as barracks or a power plant, and consumes five times as much tiberium in the process.

[X3M]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:50 AM, Nyerguds said:

No... helipad costs 1500, and the helicopter on it is worth 1200. So the cost of the actual building according to the game is only 300. Meaning, it builds as fast as barracks or a power plant, and consumes five times as much tiberium in the process.

That 600 is based on your 800 for the refinery. I know that the helipad is 300. Refinery is 600.

True that I put both comments in the same alinea.

[Nyerguds]

Oh, heh. Sorry, But, yes, you mentioned the helipad right after it, so I thought you referred to that. Yeah, harvester is 1400, so that's indeed 600. I confused it with the price of the helicopters.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Nyerguds

[X3M]

No problem. I did write it down a bit weird after all.

 

In other news. I got myself a new Iphone. My saved games are gone. But the game is not. So I started with the Atreides.

I discovered that mission 5 gives me soooooooooo much more points than mission 6 and 7. All 3 missions, I build only 1 refinery and watches the slaughter. After roughly 2 hours I ended the mission. But the scores are very weird. 5>7>6. I mean, I almost reached 1000 points in mission 5. Only 700 in 6 and about 850 in 7. Weird huh? But as said before, I suspect that the score system is bugged in my version. I checked some notes of you Nyerguds. And compared them to the game. Counted units etc. It's totally different.