Tanks

[Edric O]

Shaddam, let's continue the argument here. ;) If you don't put tanks in A2k, you'll leave the game a bit "empty". Tanks have a specific role in RTS games and there must be SOMETHING with that role in A2k. Call them whatever you want, but you must put in tank-like vehicles. Or a cross between a heavy groundcar and a light artillery.

[garth]

Would you accept Dr. McNelly's (author of the DE) final word on this issue?

AND: Do you believe the Harkonnen's and the Emperor were ignorant of the terrain of Dune?

[ordos45]

Personally I think tanks are essential in any RTS game, they are in just about every RTS game. But that is only my opinion.

[garth]

Shogun Total War = highly acclaimed RTS = NO TANKS

[gil]

Shogun Total War = highly acclaimed game, not an RTS.

Look, this discussion has been made over three times ... :(

[niels]

Since when cant you use tanks in the desert?

nowadays tanks can be used there. And dune is placed in the year 10 thousand. Earth is forgotten. people travel space. Perhaps there wasnt any tanks in the movie. But i think that it would be stupid if they wouldnt use tanks. I know the harkonnen used artillery. And there are the thopters.

It may have something to do with the units that have shields on are immune to bullets. But you cant use a shield on dune. I think a compromise could be armored trikes. ack this is too difficult for balancing though.

[Guest Sponken]

Reason:

Tank makes noise.

Sandworm hears noise.

Sandworm move towards noise.

Sandworm finds tank.

Sandworm eat tank.

Tank is no more!

[niels]

oh yes. a thousand running men dont make noise. Especially when firing shelves!!!

[fremen59]

I agree tanks should be left out of the game; it sticks with Dune. Well, tanks on SAND anyway. Nothing to keep tanks and other ground vehicles from rushing through the city streets exterminating everything. And yes, a couple thousand running madmen would attract worms, but hey, Muad'dib got away with it =)

One other thing. In Dune: House Atredies, Dr. Kines had a trike-like thing he rode around in, so yes, I suppose they could have vehicles that crossed sand, although having a worm suddenly chomp ya would hurt

[garth]

The widespread use of shields in the Duniverse prevents tanks from running around exterminating everything in a city street for example.

The vehicle you mention from HA is a groundcar I believe, and I have supported their inclusion in the game given their use in the final battle of Arrakeen.

An interesting fact from Dune is how the Great Houses were so resistant to change because it inevitably would deteriorate their power, prestige, and wealth.  By banning the use of personal shields in the Imperium, Leto II effectively turned the archaic feudal structure of the Corrino's upside down and the Great Houses of the Landsraad with it.  Therefore we can see how this single invention, the personal defense shield was the cause and a huge factor in the ultimate demise of feudalism in the Imperium :)

[garth]

Oh btw, the worms only detect RYTHMIC vibrations, thats how the fremen were able to avoid/ride the worms (with the aid of thumpers and maker hooks of course).

[Gobalopper]

The dev team has been talking about tanks for a long time now and guess what we still are! And probably will be until one side folds. :)

I think tanks will always be an issue since people are so used to having them in an RTS, most games use/rely on them, especially those from Westwood.

One reason why I would like to see a game that doesn't focus on tanks, other then my view that they don't fit, is that I think we shouldn't just copy what other games have done in the past. When you think about it what is the point of us creating a Dune game if it will basically be the same as what Westwood is doing gameplay wise?

[gil]

I can't believe I'm wading into this yet again ... Gob, just copy the huge discussion in the private forum to a new topic. Everything said here has been said there: why shields don't prevent the usage of tanks, where tanks should be used, how should they be used (supportive role, not something you could rush with) ... etc.

But just a quick review of it all:

A) Take your pick, Shaddam - either you go by suffy and radiant heat passes thru' shields making HE tank shells effective or you go by DE which says that only gamma and x-rays pass thru' a shield (and therefore, visible light doesn't ... yeah, right!).

B) Tanks should be in the support role. Not something you could rush on with, because they're slow and they're essencially moving light artilleries (plus, a rocket behind one will knock it out). I don't like the way Westwood is doing things because it leaves out important things as the HtH combat, and it takes the importance of the infantry, but infantry only is taking away something that would add so much to the game in fun terms ... I think that the simple inclusion of infantry personal shields is a deterrent enough to tank control of a a level, don't you think (MarS's idea for blast radius)?

C) No vehicle other than harvesters go to the open desert, where worms dwell. Tanks would be used on rock or in the sand protected by the shield wall.

D) Men walking make sounds. FREMEN don't, so Atreides troops shouldn't wither, but all other Houses troops don't know how to walk properly on sand. Besides, if a fight breaks out, shields will be turned on and it will be worse than a tank platoon (even if shields are left off, a machine gun is rythmic enough.)

Yadda, yadda, yadda and so on. :)

We can go on and on in circles forever with this ...

[Gobalopper]

I did it was just not shown because it was back in December when the last reply was made, I moved it up to the top... it's in the gameplay, et all section...

[ordos45]

On part C of thufir's post he mentioned keeping tanks on rock, with that I agree. If you have 20 or so tanks on rock outside a base and fremen infantry are rushing you, you'll be able to bombard them until they are close and then bring out your infantry. Also basing tanks in cities would maybe help, if you fired a tank's machine gun slower 'remember the slow object penetrates the shield' so slower bullets would pass through shielded infantry possibly. It seems I've taken sides already and never realized it.

[garth]

If heat energy passed through shields then everyone would be using flame throwers instead of knives and swords. The one instance of a pillar of fire used against an UNSHIELDED ornithopter came as a shock to Gurney Halleck, meaning it was a very very very rare tactic, and him being a superb weaponsmaster.

During the conversation between Thufir and Leto I on p.89-91 Thufir mentions that there are shielded carryalls, albeit rare. And we know that a carryall is just an oversized ornithopter.....

Explosions do not penetrate shields, projectiles moving between 200-400 meters/sec do not penetrate shields, flames do not penetrate shields, lasguns can't be used against shields, tanks are impractical in the desert, you're running out of options!

[ordos45]

Doesn't it mention that the ORIGINAL Duncan Idaho engaged the Sarduakar with a shield on but died with a bullet. That would make tanks firing slower bullets ideal.

[Mahdi]

Your thinking about the movie. In the book he was stabbed in the head.

[Gobalopper]

Slow moving things don't travel that far... so tanks that fire slow moving projectiles won't be too useful.

[ordos45]

ok Harkahn, I guess your right Gobalopper, but still it sounded like a good idea at the time

[niels]

Errr wait a second. i thought shealds were useless because of the worms. So tanks wouldnt need slow bullets since noone has shields on. And a big misconception is that tanks are slow.... they are really fast. that is what makes them fun.

Als there could be small armored cars that are faster than worms. Or perhaps an hovering tank!!! a tank that floats above the desert.

anyway. i think tanks are fun. especially because ornithopters would be kicking ass without a good tank with anti aircraft missiles. You could give soldiers a stinger like missile. But in reality it would be almost impossible to hit a fast moving agile ornithopter with it.

[garth]

"The Harkonnens certainly used plenty of shields here," Hawat said. "They had repair depots in every garrison village and their accounts show a heavy expenditure for shield replacements and parts." ~p.88 paperback DUNE

Granted they drive worms into a killing frenzy, but most of the combat and spice operations take place, in the original DUNE, along the Shield Wall, where most of the population is concentrated:

"Up here closer to the Shield Wall where most of the spicing's done...." ~p.88 paperback DUNE

All of this really doesnt matter though because A2k is taking place between DUNE Messiah and Children of DUNE, where Arrakis has undergone a partial transformation.

[gil]

Aye, aye, aye!

Thufir to the rescue!!! :)

Ok, now for all the stuf that's been said here:

A) Thanks Gobal. :)

B) Shaddam, you sent me this excerpt from DE:

"Commercial defensive shields are normally manufactured to admit all wavelengths from the very short-wave radio through gamma rays and emit longer-wave radio.  Thought it might seem foolish to admit such dangerous wavelengths as the gamma and X ray wavelengths the common decision has been that it is far better to expose oneself to a little background radiation that it is to have ones shield emitting dangerous radiation during a fight."

First things first:

DE screwed up big time. A laser is just visible light as far as the wavelenght is concerned - so if light passes on, then why doesn't a laser? ... Mistake 1.

The thing that might turn the shield into a nuke about a laser couldn't be heat, otherwise everytime a bullet was repelled the energy released would nicely sub-atomically detonate the shield.

Second things ... err ... second:

Even if DE is right, then heat is admited. Heat is infrared, the next set of wavelenghts after visible light (then radar, microwave and finally radio). Mistake 2.

And then is that thing about a sheild allowing for some molecular interchange - then why the hell doesn't a photon get through?

Third thing last:

No pillar-of-fire was used on Gurney, shad, you're messing things up - rocket launchers were. The pillars-of-fire were used by the Atreides defenders of some fortification.

C) That thing about a Carryall being shielded was about what? Even transport Orni's carried shields, it's just that turning them on while in flight isn't a healthy thing to do (air molecules attriction to limited shield permeability).

B) I believe you're the one running out of options, Shad. :)

Lasers can't be used against shields and neither can anything material travelling above 6 or 9 cm per second (altough I can't understand why ... what is the sheidl measuring? Energy or mass? ). However, flamers and explosions do ...

And tanks are pratical in desert enviroments. Just rent one of those Desert Storm videos and watch.

D) There is no D. :)

E) Those massively shielded fortifications had the so called "bubble-shields", so a tank could just move within the perimeter and let loose. if the defender lowered the shield to fire on it, then all the better!

Tada! Da enda.

[garth]

I'll say it once and I'll say it one more time:

IF heat energy passed through shields, thufir, then everyone would be using flame throwers instead of knives and swords.

Its a heck of alot easier to train someone to aim a flamethrower than it is to get them to use a knife in close quarters.

Youre forgetting that in Desert Storm there werent the gigantic Coriolis Sandstorms and monstrous sandworms devouring intruders! Combat in the arabian peninsula is a flawed analogy to combat on Arrakis. Tanks simply wont work in an arrakian environment.

[gil]

Ok, one more time for me also:

IF Dune wasn't so damn flawed we could come to that kind of logical assumptions. And then the game takes place in an altered timeline and it's about a war at an epic scale such as never seen before, which authorizes new tactical doctrines.

And yes it is a lot easier to train someone to use a flamethrower, but would you use so many in the massed infatry ranks where you could burn your allies easily? only a few men would be armed with them and other explosive projectile weaponry.

And like you use to say to me for tanks: Where does it state that heat is not transmissible thru' shields?

And you're forgetting that those dangers are very lethal to infatry too (more even for the case of storms) but that doesn't stop them from fighting in Dune does it?