gil

Dej

No it isn't ... In a deductive reasoning the results are always undeniably true as long as the conditions are true as well (the simple usage of the Pillar-o'-Fire already denies that). And the deductive reasoning doesn't aim at an universal scale truth, it aims at particular truths and so it can't be used. Therefore it's just plain guessing (or Baconian inductive reasoning, whatever you want to call it). And just why wouldn't flamers be used? And "Because they never where!" is not a valid answer. Projectile guns were never used in a shielded war before Paul ... Ok, all evidences point to the non-existance of tanks ... now what evidences would that be? We haven't got a SINGLE evidence here so far - only assumptions. You say there aren't tanks because they were never mentioned, I say that there are tanks but they were never mentioned. If you like using philosophical reasoning then you can't say something's true without undiniable confirmation as well as labelling something fake without flawless evidence as well. Now the Books don't say: "There are tanks." or "There are no tanks." so that leaves us where? In the speculation fields. 1.) And the US governement is peace-loving but keeps getting into wars. And just because everyone else isn't doing it doesn't mean you should too (specially in the case of a war, where staying ahead in the tech race is crucial). 2.) Arrakis is very harsh on machines and extremelly harsh on men. Why can't machines be there too? A vehicle is much better suited to survive the extreme temperatures and the lack of water. Of course that the eternal disadvantage of a vehicle is the SandWorm problem, but the eternal disadvantage of infantry forces are SandStorms. 3.) First I say that shields can't be completely invunerable to small-scale weapons and you go by Duffy to prove me wrong. Basing myself on Duffy too I show that heat passes thru' shields. Then you go by DE and try to prove me wrong too. Again I show heat passes according to DE too, now you ignore both and say "it just isn't so" ?!?! I'm basing myself on the Books here and you still keep saying that stuff? Geeeeez! Their weapons ARE effective, no argument there (unless you have something new to show me). 4.) Tanks can't be used in the open desert because of the SandWorms, not the sand. 5.) Their only alternative is to fight on rock or SandWorm-safe sand areas. And who cares about all those shields if heat passes through them? Only large bubble shields are invunerable to them and those are only found in fortifications. I am truly tired of this tanks thing! :(

Ok, one more time for me also: IF Dune wasn't so damn flawed we could come to that kind of logical assumptions. And then the game takes place in an altered timeline and it's about a war at an epic scale such as never seen before, which authorizes new tactical doctrines. And yes it is a lot easier to train someone to use a flamethrower, but would you use so many in the massed infatry ranks where you could burn your allies easily? only a few men would be armed with them and other explosive projectile weaponry. And like you use to say to me for tanks: Where does it state that heat is not transmissible thru' shields? And you're forgetting that those dangers are very lethal to infatry too (more even for the case of storms) but that doesn't stop them from fighting in Dune does it?

Aye, aye, aye! Thufir to the rescue!!! :) Ok, now for all the stuf that's been said here: A) Thanks Gobal. :) B) Shaddam, you sent me this excerpt from DE: "Commercial defensive shields are normally manufactured to admit all wavelengths from the very short-wave radio through gamma rays and emit longer-wave radio. Thought it might seem foolish to admit such dangerous wavelengths as the gamma and X ray wavelengths the common decision has been that it is far better to expose oneself to a little background radiation that it is to have ones shield emitting dangerous radiation during a fight." First things first: DE screwed up big time. A laser is just visible light as far as the wavelenght is concerned - so if light passes on, then why doesn't a laser? ... Mistake 1. The thing that might turn the shield into a nuke about a laser couldn't be heat, otherwise everytime a bullet was repelled the energy released would nicely sub-atomically detonate the shield. Second things ... err ... second: Even if DE is right, then heat is admited. Heat is infrared, the next set of wavelenghts after visible light (then radar, microwave and finally radio). Mistake 2. And then is that thing about a sheild allowing for some molecular interchange - then why the hell doesn't a photon get through? Third thing last: No pillar-of-fire was used on Gurney, shad, you're messing things up - rocket launchers were. The pillars-of-fire were used by the Atreides defenders of some fortification. C) That thing about a Carryall being shielded was about what? Even transport Orni's carried shields, it's just that turning them on while in flight isn't a healthy thing to do (air molecules attriction to limited shield permeability). B) I believe you're the one running out of options, Shad. :) Lasers can't be used against shields and neither can anything material travelling above 6 or 9 cm per second (altough I can't understand why ... what is the sheidl measuring? Energy or mass? ). However, flamers and explosions do ... And tanks are pratical in desert enviroments. Just rent one of those Desert Storm videos and watch. D) There is no D. :) E) Those massively shielded fortifications had the so called "bubble-shields", so a tank could just move within the perimeter and let loose. if the defender lowered the shield to fire on it, then all the better! Tada! Da enda.

I can't believe I'm wading into this yet again ... Gob, just copy the huge discussion in the private forum to a new topic. Everything said here has been said there: why shields don't prevent the usage of tanks, where tanks should be used, how should they be used (supportive role, not something you could rush with) ... etc. But just a quick review of it all: A) Take your pick, Shaddam - either you go by suffy and radiant heat passes thru' shields making HE tank shells effective or you go by DE which says that only gamma and x-rays pass thru' a shield (and therefore, visible light doesn't ... yeah, right!). B) Tanks should be in the support role. Not something you could rush on with, because they're slow and they're essencially moving light artilleries (plus, a rocket behind one will knock it out). I don't like the way Westwood is doing things because it leaves out important things as the HtH combat, and it takes the importance of the infantry, but infantry only is taking away something that would add so much to the game in fun terms ... I think that the simple inclusion of infantry personal shields is a deterrent enough to tank control of a a level, don't you think (MarS's idea for blast radius)? C) No vehicle other than harvesters go to the open desert, where worms dwell. Tanks would be used on rock or in the sand protected by the shield wall. D) Men walking make sounds. FREMEN don't, so Atreides troops shouldn't wither, but all other Houses troops don't know how to walk properly on sand. Besides, if a fight breaks out, shields will be turned on and it will be worse than a tank platoon (even if shields are left off, a machine gun is rythmic enough.) Yadda, yadda, yadda and so on. :) We can go on and on in circles forever with this ...

Shogun Total War = highly acclaimed game, not an RTS. Look, this discussion has been made over three times ... :(

It'za coola'! Good work. :)

And the discussion drags on and on ... :) Ok, first of all: I do believe there is an House Ordos. I don't how, I don't know why, but I think there is or at least there's a very big chance there is one (around the 99%'s :) ). So we can pretty much lay concrete over the Ordos existance. Just one thing - I really don't think they would be a House Major. House Minor is more like it ... even in your tale you say their inner structure was ripped appart (assassination), it takes many years (as in a few generations) to recover from such a blow. Now on to wonderland: The House Major title ... And even if they bribed their way into a House Major, do you think they would still be influential? I mean, the great Harks with all their wealth would need sixty years of *Spice* harvesting to pay for the Guild transportation and the Emperor's cumplicity (not that he demanded money, but there were a few Sardaukar legions to be transported and the Emperor wouldn't want to pick up the tab ... ). They'd be a Great House in title ... kinda like a duke in a democracy. :) And don't even tell me that they were more rich than the two Houses (The Richese and Harks) that mined Spice on Arrakis for so long! Do you know the price of a decagram of that stuff? 620,000 Solaris! (it's not like I know the interchange value for Solaris to American dollars, but a figure with so many zeros must mean something :).) And Houses with the caliber to invade Dune on their own would certainly be mentioned by Frankie, wouldn't they? It's not like every Great House has the means to invade a planet and take on the owners of the three greatest military structures in the know Universe (Fremen and Atrs; Sardaukar; Hark legions). Second: I think the Ordos should even be in A2k as one of the factions you obliterate / assimilate as a ruler of the three Great Houses. If you where Atreides or Corrino, then you'd have to blow them into orbit, if you were Richese you could 'ally' with them. Comment on this, plz. Third: Now, I didn't write my fingers off (around 20 pages of text) in the private forum for you to tell me that there aren't armoured vehicles on Dune did I? :) I proved by A + B = C that there where such combat vehicles. Yes, for you all out there - after exhaustive talks I (with a little help from other parties) proved that there were armed, armoured vehicles on the first Dune book. Even tough they wouldn't be considered HBT's , they could certainly pass for MBT's (they had the size and the guns for it ... armour too I suppose, but that isn't a factor in a shield universe). Why weren't they extensively used? Explanation => shields. Why were they used? Explained again => Mobility, troop transport into hazardous areas, unshielded targets would be cannon fodder (the Sardaukar tried them on the Fremen). There is also that little thing about radiant energy that viabilizes large explosive guns like the ones found in tanks, remember ... ? Frankie must have forgotten about that. Hehe ... And I also explained why tracks would be better than suspensor drives for such vehicles. Go check ... Fourth: Shaddam never acted like he owned A2k. He always shares ideas before deciding them, and if they are either okeyed or tought good byt the relevant members (story ideas by the guys doing the story, graphics ideas by the guys making the graphics, etc ... ) then he'd 'spread the word' so to speak. And don't even bring the Inquisition thingy here Edric - it was a joke (for the twentieth time). I hope this settles it (unlikely everyone will agree with me, but it was worth a 'pacifying shot'). :)

At least I hope we can put in different types of the same unit for each House, even Trikes. That'd add a lot more fun to the game. BTW, DeathWing rulez. ;)

Actaully, I read it ... ;D I did forget about the music guy. I really think domeone should reply to him. Not me, though, I lack the power to allow peolple in the team. ;)

Well, you did ask for a sugestion ... ;)

Hehehehe, you were never flamed like that were you? Okay, just this: if you read between the lines, you'll see that everything you said has been done ... ;)

FLAME !

If so, how well? Hey, it is also important right now!...

Oops, a bit to far ... about a 1000 Km. We do however share the same timezone. :) A good spot? How about Mars? I hear that they are arranging a turist trip to it. It will be composed of two vehicles. They would be, however, too small for a human. They were built for some kind of robot, go figure ... Anyway, if one wishes to tag along, he is welcome. All he has to do is wear a Space Suit and hold on to the thing for a couple of years. Sounds good? :)