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Why don't we start tournaments??

THE AQIB

By THE AQIB
in Dune 2000

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  • 3 weeks later...
Shaokhan

Shaokhan

Posted
Posted

I've been surprised that quite some people were trying to make tournaments in this game....that's like utter nonsense. Tournaments are done to determine winners out of a certain pool of players, and the bigger the pool to choose players for tournament, the better. In my vision what is needed is some kind of ladder play. People need to come into game regularly to achieve something, to advance somewhere. Blizzard has got ladder, achievements, game balance, customer support, etc. That's why Weswood failed and Blizzard is on top. In Starcraft 2 there are 6 leagues in which you can advance or drop and there is matchmaking rating to determine player skill. That way players get matched against similar skill. In case of Dune there are players from all league skill levels and are supposed to make matches. Of course if someone is 2 or 3 leagues above you the loss is going to hurt, badly. Most people have their ego and it can't handle it. What happens then is people either just quit or they bitch about it and I see some cry about it on forums. Not cool.

 

So the summary is, if you want to make something, make ladder or something people can be involved in on day-to-day basis.

 

Tournaments are pointless atm, you will never get enough players as of now. The player pool needs to be increased first. This is basically why I created my channel on Youtube, to increase the pool, get more players, get more skilled and talented players and get some more competition. Then you will have awesome tournaments.

Feda

Feda

Posted
Posted

Yea, so then go make a dedicated server for dune and establish leagues there like the starcrap model. Until that people use the methods they have atm. I know its not balanced but thats it; giving blizzard models to westwood old games is no-sense.

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted
It makes a perfect sense feda

Would be pretty easy, if someone wanted to make a ladder system I could host it, and we could have players report wins/losses in place of an automated system until someone could establish a way of automation.

Feda

Feda

Posted
Posted
It makes a perfect sense feda

The engine doesnt allow it. Starcraft 1 didnt have that either , the league thingy. For now the only way of ladder possible  would be the one suggested by gruntlord.

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted
The engine doesnt allow it. Starcraft 1 didnt have that either , the league thingy. For now the only way of ladder possible  would be the one suggested by gruntlord.

Actually, it doesn't need the engine to support it. What it needs is server software. If we have a centralized server, we can use that to keep track of wins/losses automatically. Would also solve the issue of the fragmented player base. As for enforcing the installation of the newer software to connect to the server, that is easy as well, as I can simply package it into the Gruntmods Edition installer. 

 

So once again, it comes down to needing server software. If someone could compile a build of PVPGN for dune 2000, I could try and get it running and possibly figure out how to change the source code to support a ladder system (although I believe it may already support it).

 

Edit: looks like it has Westwood Online support for "local" ladders. No idea what they mean by local, maybe isolated to that server?

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted

On the same note as the server, we should come up with an official rule set, so new players know what to do. For example, there is a rule for not attacking harvesters right?

Feda

Feda

Posted
Posted
On the same note as the server, we should come up with an official rule set, so new players know what to do. For example, there is a rule for not attacking harvesters right?

No, and all those rules are simply retarded if u ask me (rules such as NERTHH or 8 min). There shouldnt be any rules set by default; they should exist only if both players or all players in a match agree. I dont know other RTS games that force players not to rush for 8 mins for example. I know that ppl say its to help new players, but that isnt helping them. Learning to defend in early game is important... If games end fast, thats it! At least no more 1-2 hour boring games :) But if both players are playing good and can defend themselves it doesnt end so fast..

 

Now about the server, theres that problem with max 4 players/match that WOL has. There is some PvPGN server , we tried it, but it supported max 4 players. There's a 6 player patch that ppl used back in the days of 1998-2001 (something like that) but we tried it last summer and it didnt work. Maybe it requires Windows 9x to work, i dont know.  

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted
No, and all those rules are simply retarded if u ask me (rules such as NERTHH or 8 min). There shouldnt be any rules set by default; they should exist only if both players or all players in a match agree. I dont know other RTS games that force players not to rush for 8 mins for example. I know that ppl say its to help new players, but that isnt helping them. Learning to defend in early game is important... If games end fast, thats it! At least no more 1-2 hour boring games :) But if both players are playing good and can defend themselves it doesnt end so fast..

 

Now about the server, theres that problem with max 4 players/match that WOL has. There is some PvPGN server , we tried it, but it supported max 4 players. There's a 6 player patch that ppl used back in the days of 1998-2001 (something like that) but we tried it last summer and it didnt work. Maybe it requires Windows 9x to work, i dont know.  

The game isn't designed for multiplayer of that scale, so I have no idea how well it will actually work in practice. With people who turtle and build massive armies, its likely you could end up hitting the unit limit, not to mention all the base maps are not balanced for that level of play. Then there's the technical limitations of the game over a network, we have no idea how stable the network code would be for 6 player games, and from what I have heard it can be laggy enough with 4.

As for the rulesets, we can have a vote to decide which way the community would want to go. I have seen many games organize themselves with rules restricting the player made by the fanbase. Pokemon is a good example. They have tier lists of what pokemon they can use, as well as certain rulesets, like not being able to put more then 1 pokemon to sleep etc. While not an RTS, it definitely applies the same kind of strategy. I will no pretend that I am in tune with the multiplayer base of this game, but I am certainly open to suggestions.

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted
well so if dune 2000 already has builtin stuff then why do all these...

if the ladder system stuff can be implementedin what way???

Can you rephrase your question? Its difficult to understand what you are asking.

Shaokhan

Shaokhan

Posted
Posted

We do have a PVPGN server compiled and tested on a virtual machine, but we could face 1 problem - lag. We would need a server with excellent ping or people will rather stick with LAN and the server needs to be available 24/7. Also there is an issue that prevents usage of both LAN and internet without restarting dune and moving some files. Maybe I could get the creator of LAN patch involved for that. It would be actually a big step ahead if we could get that to work. The lag could also be a problem as it always has been since in 1998, but user's PC's and internet connections improved, so that could help a lot, although a redone network code would be very helpful. Also there was an issue while installing dune that prevented changing the hosts file without admin rights to make dune want to connect to different server from the one on xwis.

 

Until those issues are addressed (as they are crucial), there is no reason to worry about balance, 4+ players or integrated rules. But for the rules, the resolution would be removing engineer from game and adding an ingame timer for those who don't want to be rushed. And btw, if there are like 8 players online they can play 2v2 and 2v2 rather than trying to put everyone in the same game.

 

Btw, part of that people don't care about dune is fact they don't have the ladder or achievements or something to work for in the game, if this is added, a lot of people would come.

 

Gruntlord6: Can you set up the server with public IP for testing before the ladder software is done?

Feda

Feda

Posted
Posted

Why remove engineers? Just because u can't cope with some units it doesnt mean they have to be removed. All westwood games have engineers and nobody cries.. And dont come to tell me its frustrating to be engineered and then get enemy concrete in your base: it's part of the game, your problem is that you wanna kick everything that u dont like or that u can't cope with.. I know how is it, to get engineered, cuz it happened against dato, but its part of the game. Engineers will NEVER be removed.

 

From what I know, RA doesnt have ladder as well and it has 100 players every day. Not sure if they have now, but 2 months ago they definitely hadnt and they had constant 70-80 players online every day. (I don't say ladders are useless, dont understand me wrong, but ppl do like to play games for fun not necessarily ranks)

X3M

X3M

Posted
Posted

I think it will be a problem to implement rules anyway.

 

I read somewhere about a harvester rule? What kind of bull!@#$ is that? You might as well remove the quads, trikes and raiders then. It's up to the commander to protect his resources.

I read somewhere about a engineer rule? Again, bull!@#$. Then once again, you can remove trikes and raiders. It is up to the commander to place sufficient anti engineer units. I suggest the cheap light infantry.

 

The only think that I can come up with is removing the crushing ability from all the tanks. Or slow the tanks down. The crushing is OP.

 

But if you do want to implement it. It should be boxes to be checked or drop boxes for selection. Just like how Starcraft has 50 - 100% health and C&C3 has 5 - 100% effectiveness (health and damage).

 

For the harvesters, I suggest having a number of as a drop box. Where that number represents the last ones that are immortal. So you can reduce some ones income. But not nullify it.

If you are at it, introduce a maximum harvesters allowed ;).

 

If implementing a tournament or ladder proofs to be too difficult. I suggest having a thread somewhere here where you keep score yourself. And for proof, the winner has to screen shot the victory/score screen and post it there too.

Feda

Feda

Posted
Posted

Those retarded rules forced at least 4 platers to quit dune (messaged me on YT). Not to mention even a good player that just got sick of them after some time. And yes tanks are very fast and inf very slow, that could be fixed but anyway in that massive spam fest that dune is played with rules like 8 min it doesnt really matter. At the moment the only 2 "tactics" that i see in dune are engineer rush and harv hunting: they want rules against them; then lets turn this game into mindless clicking of 3 units every time then moving tons of units to the middle of the map and camp there 1 hour. Not to mention that they play only habbanya erg all the time, even 1v1, when thats a 6 player map. They totally ignore 2-3-4 player maps. If this is the way dune 2000 online is/became, then sorry but i prefer to stick with AI where i can do whatever i want, i can build any unit and i can attack whenever i want

Just my 2 cents, shao u can start saying that i dont understand anything, or rage prfs: i dont give a shit. I dont give a shit for ranks too and i have nothing against loosing matches; but if i loose them at least be under 20 mins so that im not spending my day on 1 match. I wanna play for fun, and i wanna play many matches in 30 mins-1 hour not only 1 or 2. Dune was so much fun till i met those ridiculous rules.

THE AQIB

THE AQIB

Posted
  • Author
Posted

@shaokhan:

well wtf are you talking abt engineers are one of the games original units and others should try evading them rather than cry and say not to build em in the first place....

its the game dude and changing it will remove the original fun intended by the maker...

but u got a point on ladders as everyone likes to challenge rather than play simply....

i meant about people nowadays...

i like challenges hence i posted this topic so that i can revive tourneys....

Gruntlord6

Gruntlord6

Posted
Posted
We do have a PVPGN server compiled and tested on a virtual machine, but we could face 1 problem - lag. We would need a server with excellent ping or people will rather stick with LAN and the server needs to be available 24/7. Also there is an issue that prevents usage of both LAN and internet without restarting dune and moving some files. Maybe I could get the creator of LAN patch involved for that. It would be actually a big step ahead if we could get that to work. The lag could also be a problem as it always has been since in 1998, but user's PC's and internet connections improved, so that could help a lot, although a redone network code would be very helpful. Also there was an issue while installing dune that prevented changing the hosts file without admin rights to make dune want to connect to different server from the one on xwis.

 

Until those issues are addressed (as they are crucial), there is no reason to worry about balance, 4+ players or integrated rules. But for the rules, the resolution would be removing engineer from game and adding an ingame timer for those who don't want to be rushed. And btw, if there are like 8 players online they can play 2v2 and 2v2 rather than trying to put everyone in the same game.

 

Btw, part of that people don't care about dune is fact they don't have the ladder or achievements or something to work for in the game, if this is added, a lot of people would come.

 

Gruntlord6: Can you set up the server with public IP for testing before the ladder software is done?

Personally, engineers I do not see as unbalanced  and it seems a few of the others would be quite upset at their exclusion. I can indeed set up a server. My dedicated server is already hosting minecraft servers, and I cannot see d2k taking many resources. I already have been in talks about setting it up. On the other hand, does PVPGN not naively support ladders?

So far its looking like people are against special rules even if they are being enforced in some way. That is fine, we can see how people enjoy it in a live environment. Here is what I am thinking:

-No custom rulesets, just built in game rules

-No 6 player patch, net code is way too buggy as is and the game isn't 100% balanced to start.

- Ladder support is crucial, if it can't be done through PVPGN, we will come up with another way

-Possible support for user created maps

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