PRP Issues

[Lord J]

I'll admit that the Eras/Curt/Denis thing reminds me of the "Rachel North isn't a real person" conspiracy theory. Given Eras's personality and the dearth of class experienced by Michigan and its surrounding areas, it would not surprise me that his buddies are just that. I wouldn't mind seeing the three of them genuinely debate, if for nothing more than the same process of watching an episode of the Jerry Springer Show. Maybe I should start a thread (like my evolution and heterosexuality thread): the "Michigan Redneck Arena."

Anyway, I just don't comprehend your inability, Eras, to tuck your head, admit that your opinion lacks development, and learn to debate properly. Have you seen my first post, from years ago? It's in the "Religion" thread. Was it filled with silly opinion? Yes. Did it lack meaningful, debate-worthy statements? Yes. But I learned and developed from those days, mostly by keeping my head down and watching the masters at work. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, make a genuine effort to learn from what Wolf, Edric, and Andrew are saying.

Or, since none of us really want you here anyway, take Dante's advice.

[TheCurtOne]

"Michigan Redneck Arena" What is that supposed to mean? Where do you live so that we can make fun of it?

[Lord J]

"Michigan Redneck Arena" What is that supposed to mean? Where do you live so that we can make fun of it?

Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A few tips:

"Redneck" is a universal phenomenon. I wasn't making fun of your state or region, I was making fun of your behavior (it's a personal jab, not a regional one). I honestly know nothing about Michigan people, other than the residents of Flint, thanks to Michael Moore. Which... granted... ;)

Attempting to "make fun" of someones' region in rebuttal is a perfect example of everyone's criticism of your and Eras' "debating styles". Instead of simply arguing in terms of the assumptions and points that I am making, you feel that a, you have to take one little aside personally; and b, you have to counter with something based on what you perceive (which, granted, I did call you a redneck) as a personal attack.

Finally, why do you take "redneck" as a personal attack (of course, maybe I'm wrong, and it's "arena" you have a problem with)? Some people accept, and indeed, define themselves as rednecks. I assume you're familiar with the "You Might Be a Redneck If..." jokes. These are (somewhat) definitive properties of the redneck genus, not spoken with judgement, but with a near-scientific degree of categorization. Do you feel that you can shop at the Dollar Palace without dressing as you would for, for example, Wal-Mart? Is the appropriate place for your new television set on top of your unworking television? Have you been married three times, yet still have the same inlaws?

Edit: Something funny on the site I just linked: "You Might Be A Redneck if...Failed to execute CGI : Win32 Error Code = 50".

[TheCurtOne]

No biggee. Let's just forget about it.

[ErasOmnius]

So this has been an eventful 1 1/2 months of deliberating back and forth on this Thread. Alot of issues have been resolved, and resolved well. I'm glad that we all had the chance to talk. My good friend has become an active member, which has made me happy. There is no place like home, the Dune2k Forum.

[Dragoon Knight]

So this has been an eventful 1 1/2 months of deliberating back and forth on this Thread. Alot of issues have been resolved, and resolved well. I'm glad that we all had the chance to talk. My good friend has become an active member, which has made me happy. There is no place like home, the Dune2k Forum.

[colour=#005FFF]It's "a lot", not "alot". It's only the most glaring of your spelling / grammatical errors in that post, but you understand that I can only dedicate so much effort to pointing out your various multiple innumerable failures.[/colour]

Deliberate: verb

- To think carefully or attentively; reflect

[colour=#005FFF]That is not what has been done in this thread. No issues have been resolved. This thread is indicative of the cancer that is you, and these accusations and complaints about your actions will not stop just because you've written another pitiful summarising post in an equally sad attempt to move on. You are a horrible person, as extolled by your views and the way you present / fail to defend them. You bring nothing of substance to these forums, except to serve as an example of how not to post. Moreover, how not to live. I know you like to pretend that I don't exist, because the mean man with the blue writing says things that cut a little too deep.

Well tough. The mods are bound to a stance of neutrality, which serves to protect you from the kind of treatment you'd receive if you ever espoused these views in a real-life, public situation. As such, I will never stop calling you out on your every failure, no matter how much you want to pretend I'm not here.[/colour]

[Wolf]

Actually, this is a perfect moment to stress exactly why I take issue with your behavior and, hopefully, to illustrate the basic point I've been trying to make.

What happened? I had a theory (which I still think is true, your behavior and the behavior done under the aegis of other usernames has been highly suspicious), but I don't have enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Moreover, the mods are telling me to shut the hell up, for a variety of reasons (not all of which I think are fair). What did I do in response?

Nothing. I'm not going to pursue it again until I have hard evidence or am proven wrong. I don't feel like I've been proven wrong, yet, but it's possible that I might be surprised. What is this called? Reason. What do you never do? Exactly this. My argument that you're sockpuppeting was not only a legitimate one, it was one shared by at least half a dozen people on this forum. Unfortunately, I don't have the technology to prove it, and the mods seem to be unwilling/unable to assist me. So, game over. I have to deal with you even though I think I have good reason to believe that you're continuing to abuse this forum.

What did I not do?

1. Interpret the mods neutral stance as "CENSORSHIP" and whine like a bratty child that I was being repressed.

2. Continue to press the issue in the absence of evidence: refuse to acknowledge the points made by others, hoping that simple, blind repetition and increasing unwillingness on the part of my opponents would win by default.

Nope. I behaved like an adult. I think all people using this forum should strive to behave like adults. However, at least two people I know generally conform their behavior to the above two patterns. That's my PRP issue.

Dragoon's got a point, and, for the record? Don't ignore him: it only makes you look like an asshole.

EDIT:This is an important message for "Curt," assuming that he's an individual distinct from Eras:

You may never be able to escape the suspicion that surrounds you on this forum. I'm sorry, but that's the reality. It's not your fault, but it is 100% the fault of your "friend." His irrational, unreasonable, tasteless, and offensive behavior coupled with his egomania and general underhandedness has completely stripped him and anything he has associated himself with of any validity or legitimacy. People are conservatives in spite of Eras; people are humanitarians in spite of Eras; people are Christians in spite of Eras. If Eras (assuming he isn't just a troll) actually cared about anything he claims to care about, he'd disassociate himself from them as quickly as possible.

[ErasOmnius]

Well, my point is, you've have put forth your say, and have said it.

The Forum, once again, is a great learning tool for those who approach it with an 'open mind'. It all depends on what a person believes the goal of the Forum is.

Obviously, there are 8 or 9 of who regularly post, and we are super-entrenched on many of the issues that we believe in. These issues include issues of reproductive morality. We have our strong opinions, and we are not going to change. These camps are basically divided into ath, ErasOmnius, Curt; and LordJ, Dante, DragoonKnight, Wolf. So this is probably the last time I will ever be discussing reproductive morality issues on the Forum, as we know there will be no change in our opinions. Our opinions do nothing to change each other, but incense the other side, causing hard feelings. They engender talk about 'lack of evidence', 'unhealthy debating styles', 'bad grammar', and all sorts of negative-oriented discussions.

So I'm done, and I know Curt is almost done, since I talked to him last night on our cells, about this issue.

Any attempt to discuss my so-called negative 'behavior' is basically an attempt, in my opinion, to drag discussions about 'sexual morality' back into the forefront. I wanted you to know that this is the last time I will be discussing my 'behavior'. There are no more members or people to sway in any direction about sexual mores issues. We all know each others opinions on each of those issues, and they are not going to change.

So, you may want to talk endlessly about me, or my behavior, but I am not going to. You want to talk about whether or not I'm driving all over SE Michigan burning gasoline conjuring up or impersonating friends or co-workers, but I am not going to. I am moving on, and am strongly encouraging my friends to move on with me.

[Wolf]

Oh, you're such a leotard.

They engender talk about 'lack of evidence', 'unhealthy debating styles', 'bad grammar', and all sorts of negative-oriented discussions.

Those aren't "negative-oriented discussions"--those are all valid points! Do you lack evidence? Then admit you're wrong or drop the point until you do. Do you ignore other people's points (like you just did), or talk about irrelevant material (your personal life, other people's personal lives)? Then stop doing it! Do you have bad grammar? Well, I'll be honest, that shouldn't effect the substance of your points (if your points are valuable), but poor presentation really does make others skeptical of the quality of your work. Trust me, it's true.

Like we said, weeks ago, your problem was issue-dropping, the refusal to acknowledge other peoples' points (like you've just done, really), and the refusal to back down once you were shown proof that you were wrong or that your position lacked proof. That's all you have to do. No, this isn't a "front" to get you to stop talking about homosexuality.

[Dante]

So this has been an eventful 1 1/2 months of deliberating back and forth on this Thread. Alot of issues have been resolved, and resolved well. I'm glad that we all had the chance to talk. My good friend has become an active member, which has made me happy. There is no place like home, the Dune2k Forum.

You know, eras, it's posts like this that make you look like a troll. I mean, this thread was actually starting to fade when, oops, along you come and open it up again. That's just a little too convenient, and it rather dents my "too stupid to breathe" hypothesis while reinforcing Wolf's "malicious troll" hypothesis. If you are a troll, that move lacked subtlty.

Grow up already. As Wolf said, we don't criticise you because it's fun, we do it because you deserve criticism. They are valid criticisms which you seem incapable of understanding, let alone accepting.

But hey, you want to go back to the way things were before this thread? Fine. I'll take down the thesaurus and start looking for synonyms for "microcephalic."

[Wolf]

I like how Eras has 2 "likes" from (I'm guessing) Curt and Denis, who check back frequently enough to like his post within a couple of hours, but not frequently enough to post themselves. I mean, I said I'd drop the issue, but I didn't say that I'd never stop being suspicious.

[Dragoon Knight]

[colour=#005FFF]I'll just leave these here.

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/23597-union-busting/page__st__20__p__370831__hl__%22%23ell%22__fromsearch__1#entry370831

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/23579-censored/page__p__370594__hl__%22%23ell%22__fromsearch__1#entry370594

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/21615-afghanistan-war/page__p__370461__hl__%22%23ell%22__fromsearch__1#entry370461

You're going to have to work harder at keeping your fake friends' personalities separate, Eras.[/colour]

[Eliyyahu]

Dragoon,

They all also link exactly the same way.

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/23622-bush-tax-cuts-10-years/

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/23589-war-in-libya/

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?/topic/23604-everywhere-a-nation/

Not quite as distinctive as the #ell thing, but still a lack of effort distinguishing beyond dropping details they want to believed about each character.

[Wolf]

Jesus, I hadn't even noticed that. Good catches, both of you. Honestly, I hope the moderators will reconsider my proposition once/if it becomes obvious that the accounts really are just sockpuppets. I think the "House of Windsor" thread is a prime example of the "echo chamber" effect that I was hoping to provoke by asking Eras to feign a conversation with his alternate handles. Notice how all of the posts are one- or two-line assents to the previous poster--no actual dialogue is occurring. (I will acknowledge, however, that this includes ath, who just posts there because he feels comfortable surrounded by people who don't disagree with him). Notice also that all of the posts there follow roughly the same format in terms of style, presentation and flow--with the exception of ath: since we know he's a real person, it's pretty damning, in my opinion, that his posts are the only ones following a different format. They all use some catch-phrasey lead, link to an article, and then walk away from the issue without any substantive discussion. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was a bot doing it. Either way, I don't think it's good for the forum, and notice that rapidly, they're becoming the only names we see posting in PRP. This was exactly the problem I pointed out earlier: I think Eras is trying to get around moderation by using different handles, since he discovered we didn't like "his" voice being the only one. Why he cares so much about posting links to random websites, I don't know, but it isn't promoting discussion in PRP.

[Andrew]

You need to point this stuff out to mods directly. Otherwise they will change tactics. This goes for anything/anyone.

[ErasOmnius]

I was NEVER against any idea for us all to be on-line at once from a week and a half ago. I was an active participant in that thread.

I would love to talk to The Gang in an simultaneous on-line experience, especially Dante. Because I am still convinced that Dante and I can be friends, if he just understood where I am coming from. I know Dante and I would have a great chatting experience. I can have my son set up anything I want at any time: a chess game, a Ventrilo chat room, a Command and Conquer 3 game experience, anything you want. I know Curt would participate the one time, just to settle the issue. I think it would be great if we all could communicate again after that, in the months to come afterwards. I could tell my son, 'I have a misunderstanding with Dante, son, set up a chat with him in Scotland at noon.' That would be great. Once we understood that we are all flesh and blood people, we could start to get along, and eventually be friends.

Let's see, the issue at hand today: Dragoon, they both used the 'number sign' instead of the 'H', and this means that they are the same person? H'mm.

So TheCurtOne and I have the same overall belief system, you know, The Book. The Christian Book. ErasOmnius and TheCurtOne. You are troubled that we have similar beliefs. I don't think they are all that similar. I am far more conservative, etc.; than TheCurtOne is. I know Wolf that you are going to try to welcome Curt into the Forum, because you seem to be a somewhat fair individual. I know you are not going to 'dog' him until he leaves, just because he's pro-life or something, right?

I want the Forum to succeed, that's why I am recruiting people I know. I would love to wave a magic wand, and have the glory days of 2008 return. But we have to get past trying to hurt each other, and instead, post about events in the world. Continue to spend time trying to analyze the way the three of us post differently, or the same, if it makes you happy. I am not sure why you are trying to make my life on this Forum a sad event, but since I am an optimist, I will always be overall happy. I am doing this because I care about everyone, and I know I'm right, trying to point out the goodness of The Book. We could all be such friends, debating issues; but we're not, it's not my fault.

But instead this is dysfunctional, very dysfunctional. You know I'm not leaving. I tried to leave for a single short month, but Wolf, you really wanted me back. You kept talking about me with my friend during late May and early June, because you missed ol' ErasOmnius. So I had to come back to defend him, basically, to keep him here, and help him understand what this Forum is all about. And now he's staying. What I don't understand Wolf, is why we don't get along? Just because we have different beliefs?

I don't talk about Denis. Denis is a fun wild card. And how can I talk about someone who works for me, legally? I can't.

I don't understand about The War postings, Dragoon, could you elaborate? Because Denis and Curt don't post long posts, they don't exist? I see that Curt sometimes has long posts, especially in the whole 'Union' thread. Could you elaborate further on your concerns? I know Dragoon, could you elaborate on how differently the three of us post, try that as a perspective? Once again, I could point out how different Denis and I view the US military, but that doesn't matter. So as a person just joining, you don't like when he defended me, with the old 'lack of proof' and 'supporting details' argument, in the whole 'God kills puppies' Thread. When he thought you were unfair. You see, when someone who is a moral conservative brings up an issue to The Gang, they have to defend themselves on and on and on. But, sadly, you three spout off endlessly on issues, with hardly any proof at all. That is sad, and unfair, when we simply could all just get along. That has always been my goal.

[Wolf]

I was NEVER against any idea for us all to be on-line at once from a week and a half ago. I was an active participant in that thread.

That's a gross misrepresentation. You had one long post which was highly skeptical of the endeavor: it began with "what's in it for me" and ended with effectivelly accusing me of running a forum Gestapo. Don't lie, Eras.

I know you are not going to 'dog' him until he leaves ...

Good one.

What I don't understand Wolf, is why we don't get along?

A bunch of reasons. You relentlessly and flagrantly violate the 9th Commandment (in other words, you lie), and that irritates me. For example, just now:

But, sadly, you three spout off endlessly on issues, with hardly any proof at all.

Fuck you. Dante posts ~15 pages of well-researched argument and you call that "hardly any proof at all?" Sorry, the record is very clear on the point that you are the only person besides ath who has failed to back up your points with hard evidence. Pretty much everyone else--me, Dante, Dragoon, Edric, Eliyyahu, Lord J, and on--has either cited and explained evidence that supports them, or illustrated the logical reasoning of their post, or shown that their position is not contradicted. The people you called out in this quote (me, Dante, and Dragoon) have all actually worked the hardest in this regard. So, this is just a lie and an insult, and shit like this is why we don't get along.

What I don't understand Wolf, is why we don't get along? Just because we have different beliefs?

I have different beliefs from everyone on this forum. I get along well with those people, obviously. Logically, that cannot be why we do not get along. Try again.

P.S.

You know I'm not leaving. I tried to leave for a single short month, but Wolf, you really wanted me back. You kept talking about me with my friend during late May and early June, because you missed ol' ErasOmnius.

I find your repeated comments like these creepy and weird. I do not like you, and I do not like conversing with you. If you disappeared tomorrow and were never heard from again, I would be pleased. Also, if you were truly "gone," how did you know you had to come back to defend your "friend?" Seems to me that you're the one who really wants us around, and can't keep himself away. Especially Dante, if I think about it, I'd say you were obsessed.

[ErasOmnius]

But what about Curt and I getting on line with you and Dante, and us conversing? We can all be friends, because we are all well versed people. I am not obsessed, I just need to explain my viewpoints to him so that he knows I don't hate him, or think he's a bad person.

If we all get on-line and talk to each other in our 'real' voices, then I know we will all get along. When we hear each other, and know that we are real humans, we will say to ourselves, 'ErasOmnius and Curt are just average people from Michigan, and Wolf is an average person from the western United States, and Dante is an average person from Scotland.' That will be a good moment, when you and I and Dante become friends.

[Dante]

That's... laughable. Really.

We are never going to be friends, eras. It would take more than 'explanation,' it would take a reversal of your entire worldview and an equally dramatic personality shift to make that even slightly likely. Y'see, I'm not unfriendly to you out of spite, I'm unfriendly to you because I don't like you. You're inconsiderate, untruthful, bigoted, ignorant, egocentric and, lest we forget, very very very very very very very very very very very very stupid. Those just aren't characteristics that I look for in friends.

Every time you make a similar claim (and you've done it several times before now), you overlook the simple fact that you burned those bridges a long time ago. It's your fault you're ostracised, it's your fault you're disliked, it's your fault that the only friends you have on this forum are the ones you brought with you (and to be honest, that's really sad. Especially if they're actually you). So don't come crying to us with your hurt ego, it's your own stupid fault.

I don't care what you think of me. You can think I'm a bad person if you want, I certainly think it of you, and it's no skin off my nose either way. Try to get this through your skull: we are not against you because of a 'misunderstanding.' We are not confused about 'what you really mean.' We see exactly what you are and it is detestable.

Personally I dislike the bigotry most of all, but interestingly, it's Wolf's bugbear that you've really taken to poking lately. I mean I've seen some bare-faced lies in my time, but you really have no regard at all for the truth, do you?

I suppose that's not surprising. Given all the lies you believe, it's only natural that you'd be a liar.

Y'know, in hindsight, I should have specified different animals for each sin. I mean a lie isn't necessarily stupid, is it? So every time he tells a lie, god kills a panda? And a baby flamingo for every time he drops an issue. ...You know, I can really only be bothered keeping track of one crime. Stupidity kills puppies. Won't someone think of the puppies?

Dead puppy count: 30. Yeah, those last two posts alone killed 13 puppies. Ouch.

[ErasOmnius]

...it would take a reversal of your entire worldview...

Now I understand you, completely. Finally, after 13 months, I get it. (cold splash of water). I understand.

[Dante]

I'll be extremely surprised if that's the case. Either way, not interested. Aren't you gone yet?

[Wolf]

He's just mocking you. You wanted a "reversal" so he made his font black. Get it? It's his way of saying that he has absolutely zero respect for you, this conversation, and probably humans in general.

[Dante]

I think you're giving him too much credit, that text was white when it was first posted. I think he just adopted a stupid colour because he get depressed when he thinks people don't like him.

Inferiority complex much?

[Wolf]

Well, if that's the case, then his "friends" must have joined him in grief--there don't seem to be any posts from those "three" since 7:58 PM yesterday. What solidarity.

[Andrew]

Well, if that's the case, then his "friends" must have joined him in grief--there don't seem to be any posts from those "three" since 7:58 PM yesterday. What solidarity.

I actually had to remove 3 posts today that were baiting and breaking forum rules and internet etiquette in general.

Looking into it.