Religious teaching in Education

[Dante]

No, no, and no. And while I'm really tempted just to leave it there in order to teach you a lesson about phrasing questions properly, I long ago grew to understand that unless you explicitly explain your reasoning for something, people are liable to assume the ridiculous.

1. While atoms form our bodies, electrochemical patterns atop them are responsible for our minds. Bluntly, we are greater than the sum of our parts.

1b. All atoms are animated, in that they move and react.

1c. When such an earthquake occurs the universe has changed. It has lost lives. Whether or not it is then a "lesser" place is entirely a matter of personal opinion, given that other lives will have replaced them in the time it took the earthquake to happen (human lives, like everything else, have only as much value as we believe they do). Even if it wasn't, the effect on the universe as a whole, which is a remarkably big place, would be negligible.

1d. Less than what? The question is flawed.

2. Suicide is for quitters.

3. Closed? No. Changed? Yes.

And now that you're resting in the belief that you've successfully diverted attention from your own weaknesses to myself, here's some questions of my own.

1) Can you explain how natural selection works? If so, do so. Preferably with examples.

2) Why are you so interested in my personal life anyway?

3) What is humanism?

4) What is the Gaia hypothesis?

5) What are the central tenets of any three systems of morality apart from divine command theory?

[SandChigger]

(Glad to see this is proceeding much as I expected before peeking in. Hey, was Hweeeee really banned? Why did she change her name? WWJD?)

[Lord J]

Awesome, I just finished reading a twin set of articles from the current issue of Skeptic magazine. The first was an in-depth look at the anthropology of religion and violence, with the conclusion that they are more correlated than causally related. This was a very interesting perspective for me, considering that I tend to think of religion as more of an accidental arrival at means to control the masses.

The second was entitled, "Thank God for the New Atheists", and was essentially a call to Christians to revise their beliefs in an unchanging God, with the perspective that God is less of a person, and more of a personification. In other words, God it what you need it (him?) to be, to describe what you're talking about.

Anyway, I wish the articles were online, but all I can say is, do what I did, and visit your local bookshop and read them in the cafe.

[arnoldo]

Awesome, I just finished reading a twin set of articles from the current issue of Skeptic magazine. The first was an in-depth look at the anthropology of religion and violence, with the conclusion that they are more correlated than causally related. This was a very interesting perspective for me, considering that I tend to think of religion as more of an accidental arrival at means to control the masses.

The second was entitled, "Thank God for the New Atheists", and was essentially a call to Christians to revise their beliefs in an unchanging God, with the perspective that God is less of a person, and more of a personification. In other words, God it what you need it (him?) to be, to describe what you're talking about.

Anyway, I wish the articles were online, but all I can say is, do what I did, and visit your local bookshop and read them in the cafe.

Religion certainly can be used as a means to control the masses, along with consumerism, poverty, nationalism, disinformation, etc. I'm currently reading Aldous Huxley's book entitled Brave New World Revisited which states how pleasure/distraction can be used as a means to control the masses (which is antithetical to how Orwell described population control in 1984). The following is an excerpt for Huxley's book.

"Hitler,"wrote Hermann Rauschning in 1939, "has a deep respect for the Catholic church and the Jesuit order; not because of their Christian doctrine, but because of the 'machinery' they have elaborated and controlled, their hierarchical system, their extremely clever tactics, their knowledge of human nature and their wise use of human weaknesses in ruling over believers." Ecclesiasticism without Christianity, the discipline of a monastic rule, not for God's sake or in order to achieve personal salvation, but for the sake of the State and for the greater glory and power of the demagogue turned Leader --this was the goal toward which the systematic moving of the masses was to lead.

[athanasios]

Nice thoughts arnoldo. Mistake I didn't read that book yet.

Certainly I don't need others call me how to perceive God. Nobody has seen God. So trying to better define the essence of God with human terms is pointless.

But I noticed an interesting article there, about the placebos. Please, Lord Johnsonius, since we are not going to subscribe just to read only that, can you provide a synopsis?

[Lord J]

Arnoldo: sweet, I read Brave New World (I actually have a copy floating around in the apartment somewhere) but not "Revisited", I'll have to check it out when I'm done with the Dresden Files.

Ath: I actually just read the articles at the coffee shop, but I didn't buy the magazine, and I didn't read that one. I'm pretty sure I remember some news lately, though, where they showed in a study that placebos can work even when the subject knows about them. Maybe search google for news articles involving placebos? If I spend any more time at the coffee shop I'll let you know what I find out :)

[athanasios]

Maybe there could be an explanation: They simply don't believe they are placebos. Otherwise what else can I say? -Ops, too much of topic-or not? It is about education too, and needs faith to believe that a placebo will cure you...

[Lord J]

That's interesting, I tend to look at the effectiveness of placebos more in terms of generalization of classical conditioning of the immune response than some ephemeral as "faith". In other words, previous pairings of "pills" (neutral stimulus) and chemical treatment (unconditioned stimulus) caused pills to become conditioned stimuli for immune effectiveness, or making whatever change they are expected to make. Actually, this could include not only pills, but a doctor, or the context of a hospital, or a lab coat, or what have you.

Anyway, I don't understand faith as it's typically described, but I understand classical conditioning quite well, do the two inform one another?

[ErasOmnius]

No, no, and no. And while I'm really tempted just to leave it there in order to teach you a lesson about phrasing questions properly, I long ago grew to understand that unless you explicitly explain your reasoning for something, people are liable to assume the ridiculous.

1. While atoms form our bodies, electrochemical patterns atop them are responsible for our minds. Bluntly, we are greater than the sum of our parts.

1b. All atoms are animated, in that they move and react.

1c. When such an earthquake occurs the universe has changed. It has lost lives. Whether or not it is then a "lesser" place is entirely a matter of personal opinion, given that other lives will have replaced them in the time it took the earthquake to happen (human lives, like everything else, have only as much value as we believe they do). Even if it wasn't, the effect on the universe as a whole, which is a remarkably big place, would be negligible.

1d. Less than what? The question is flawed.

2. Suicide is for quitters.

3. Closed? No. Changed? Yes.

And now that you're resting in the belief that you've successfully diverted attention from your own weaknesses to myself, here's some questions of my own.

1) Can you explain how natural selection works? If so, do so. Preferably with examples.

2) Why are you so interested in my personal life anyway?

3) What is humanism?

4) What is the Gaia hypothesis?

5) What are the central tenets of any three systems of morality apart from divine command theory?

1. Gypsy moth example. We both know what the example means. You believe in beneficial mutations. I only believe in harmful. That's our fundamental difference. I believe we were created perfect around 6000 years ago, you don't.

2. I'm interested in everyone's personal life. Everyone else is like me, in one or another. But you're not, you're the opposite--It's interesting. The 'name calling', the 'put downs', the Story from the Summer -- it's all very fascinating. I am trying to find that ground where we can both co-exist on this Forum in semi-peace.

3. Human first.

4. The Earth is a giant organism or eco-system, life totally dependent.

5. Be more specific. Is this an anti-Hobbes question?

[Dante]

1) You cannot describe how natural selection works, as evidenced by your failure to answer the question or demonstrate an example. Ergo you do not understand it, ergo you have no logical basis for attempting to argue against it. No surprise there. I don't argue with mathematicians about orbital mechanics because I don't understand enough of the subject to criticise it. You should follow suit.

2) Your grammar is still atrocious and we can coexist peacefully when you finally admit to being wrong about everything, ever. Furthermore, I fail to see how asking about whether or not I would commit suicide is conducive to diplomatic relations.

3) Invalid due to lack of detail.

4) Organism is not the same as ecosystem (which is one word, stop torturing the poor hyphen), "life totally dependent" makes no sense and you didn't even mention homeorhesis. Did you even read the wikipedia page, or were there too many big words?

5) Specificity is irrelevent, you can choose any three systems of morality besides divine command theory and have to give at least three of each system's central tenets. It doesn't get much simpler than that, O Stupid One. But since you failed to answer that question as well (claiming it wasn't specific enough is preschool-level deflection), I'll just have to assume that you failed to understand that one as well. Or failed to use Google. But no, I think it's more likely that you're just that stupid.

So, five questions posed, five failed. I encourage you to try again though, you might actually learn something in the process. Or maybe pigs will fly.

[ErasOmnius]

You did not ask me any of those questions to engage in a general conversation, or to begin a new Thread. You wanted to show how smart you were in your area of expertise. For example, if you want to talk Hobbes, we can talk Hobbes -- but I'm going to cover every gamut you want, so you can consume my life away.

But, let's talk about some really interesting stuff that will really 'stir the pot'.

1. How do you feel about the effects of synthetic hormones on a woman's uterus in the pre-menstrual phase of the monthly cycle?

2. What were the long-term effects of Origen's beliefs in non-trinitarianism on the Eastern Roman Empire?

3. How are some of the ways that Frank Herbert's writings about the Mahdi, correspond to Iran's current President's beliefs about the Mahdi?

And as far as me feeling stupid? I don't feel stupid. Let's see. Let's check the boxes on my life.

1. Wife who makes $200k ($125k pounds) yearly.

2. 4 children. 3 of them on track. 16-year old can speak 3 languages and play 3 musical instruments. 13 year old is captain of basketball team. 9 yr old is ace baseball player. The genetic material is quite sound.

3. Fitness fanatic.

4. Lecture on History as Adjunct Instructor at Local College.

5. Homeless Shelter volunteer. (30 hours per week). Helping to change the alcoholic, the drug addicted, and the sexually confused in our world.

6. Sunday School Teacher (Over 150 attendees).

So I'm feeling pretty good.

[Dante]

Oh hey, look, more guff to distract from the fact that you can't answer the questions.

Look, you obviously need this explained in small words, so I'll do my best: we not made words about Hobbes. We not made words about way body works. We never made words about the Mahdi. But you keep making words about evol- ... thing where things change. We made words about planet, we made words about ethics, we made words about science. You keep being wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. So very very wrong. All wrong. Every part wrong. And me make question so that you have chance to prove you know what you talk about. You fail. Me no talk about Hobbes. You talk about science, you wrong.

So me be blunt. Me not ask question to show off, me ask question so you prove you can answer. You fail. You fail and not know what you talk about. This not mean you stupid (you stupid for other reasons), this mean you ignorant. Ignorant of biology, ignorant of evo... the thing where things change. Ignorant of science. How you expect to argue science with scientist when you not understand science? When you not able to explain science? How can you argue against science if you not understand what you argue against? Is like man in desert arguing against fish. Man in cave arguing against sun. He try, but he never seen, no describe, argument worthless. Make no sense. You make no sense. Failure to answer questions prove this. Want to prove different? Answer question. All else just air, dross, words to fill space, no meaning, no worth.

You have choice. Answer question or not. Not answer question (maybe try distract again, maybe ignore, maybe fill air with words like buzzing flies, bzz!) mean you admit ignorance and lose right to opinion on science. Answer question and words can go on like sensible talk. Me suggest you try answer question again. Do research. Think. Am willing to teach if you willing to learn.

[ErasOmnius]

Gotta make it quick today, not a lot of time.

I'm right, as usual. Let me summarize my views.

Human Reproduction - Male and Female. Create enough Offspring to further the species with a healthy society.

Human Sexuality- Male and Female, monogamous. No VD, ensures proper upbringing of children. Male homosexuality especially produces venereal disease, as fecal waste is sometimes ingested. Male homosexuals usually engage in multiple partners. Heterosexual adultery is sickening too, as people believe they can trade their spouses in for 'new models'.

Economics- Concerned for the less fortunate. As people fall prey to wealthy with predatory loans, they lose homes. Need shelters.

Non-Medicinal Drugs- Always bad. Addictive. People sacrifice everything to obtain addictions. Money, family, homes. May end up dying from habit.

Alcohol - Consume moderately. Too much and driving kills people. Usually leads to the Shelter.

Democracy - Don't vote. Can't change anything. Banks will always be in control. The 2 or 3 party system is a lie.

Military - Don't 'serve'. Forbidden to kill others simply for nation's economic gain.

Exercise - 90 minutes daily. Must ensure longevity and productivity.

Evolution - Joke of a science. People like to believe in it, because they can be their own gods. They can't really explain anything when asked.

DUNE - Great book. Written wonderfully.

Israel - How can a nation come back together after being scattered to the 4 corners of the world? God did it.

Shelters - When the rubber hits the road. Gays come in, sick of the life-style, then change, some go back. Alcoholics come in, some get sober, some don't. Drug addicts, some get clean, some don't. Families who lost their homes due to debt, shelters are a temporary stop.

Usually anyone who does not want to live the right way, doesn't want to put forth the effort to change, to be normal.

[Dante]

...How stupid are you? Are you completely incapable of answering a direct question? If I asked you "what are your thoughts on prophase 1?" would you give me an essay on your oh-so-precious shelter again? Do the things you say make any sense to you at all, or does what comes out of your mouth just happen independently of whatever limited cognitive ability you possess? Four out of those five questions have nothing to do with your ridiculously inflated "views," they were academic questions that you have, again, completely failed to answer.

Here, let me give you an example. If I were to ask you about refractive indices, an answer about prisms and Isaac Newton would not be amiss. If you were to start blathering on about homosexuality (again, you are a serious broken record, you know that?) then you have not answered the question.

If I were to ask you about the growth of tension between Hinduism and Islam in India and you answer with your opinions on drug use, you have not answered the question.

I asked you four very simple mostly scientific questions. You have yet to answer them. If you continue not to answer them, I will have no choice but to assume that you're mentally retarded and incapable of comprehending the most basic of truths. Let me emphasise this next bit as it is important: I am offering you the opportunity to prove that you are not a dribbling idiot. Stop wasting my limited good will and answer the questions properly. If you're as serious about "coexisting peacefully" and all that rot then you'll do some research and answer those damned questions correctly. Prove to me that you can understand science, prove to me that you have greater cognitive ability than an eggplant. How can I make this any clearer? I am being nice enough to offer you a route by which we can converse like civilised beings, stop squandering my benevolence with your offtopic, egocentric bullshit.

[Dragoon Knight]

I'm right, as usual. Let me summarize my views.

Human Reproduction - Male and Female. Create enough Offspring to further the species with a healthy society.

Human Sexuality- Male and Female, monogamous. No VD, ensures proper upbringing of children. Male homosexuality especially produces venereal disease, as fecal waste is sometimes ingested. Male homosexuals usually engage in multiple partners.

Evolution - Joke of a science. People like to believe in it, because they can be their own gods. They can't really explain anything when asked.

Israel - How can a nation come back together after being scattered to the 4 corners of the world? God did it.

Shelters - When the rubber hits the road. Gays come in, sick of the life-style, then change, some go back.

Usually anyone who does not want to live the right way, doesn't want to put forth the effort to change, to be normal.

[colour=#005FFF]Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you "The Collected Works of ErasOmnius' Idiocy". A scant few sentences, yes, but within this horrible stanza of repressed homosexuality and hatred is a concentrated distillation of everything that is wrong with his views, and to some extent the internet / society today / the world. We've got just about everything in there: arrogance, homophobia, elitism, ignorance, blind acceptance, delusion... and can you see the undercurrent of racism throughout the entire diatribe? All this can be yours for the low, low price of your sanity, as reading Eras' posts may cause brain damage or suicide. Probably just rage and despair, that anyone could be so very, very wrong, while believing themselves to be the paragon of correctness. Some may laugh or cry. I just retaliate using the only ammunition I have; logic.[/colour]

I'm right, as usual.

[colour=#005FFF]HAHAHAHAHAHAno.[/colour]

Human Reproduction - Male and Female. Create enough Offspring to further the species with a healthy society.

[colour=#005FFF]Human reproduction requires semen, an ovum and a womb. You spout blithering nonsense about Dune all the time; you should be intimitely familiar with this fact. What you really mean to say is that all the heathen gays and lesbians aren't proper parents because they didn't do the nasty. Shut up you horrible bloody bigot.[/colour]

Human Sexuality- Male and Female, monogamous. No VD, ensures proper upbringing of children. Male homosexuality especially produces venereal disease, as fecal waste is sometimes ingested. Male homosexuals usually engage in multiple partners.

[colour=#005FFF]Thaaaaaat's better. Clear-cut homophobia, hatred for your fellow man / woman, excused because you "hate the sin, not the sinner". Bullshit.

You claim that monogamous male-female relationships get no VD - you're wrong. What about those who are born with it, due to a parent who had it during childbirth? What about rape? What about the millions and millions and millions of gay and lesbian relationships that have no issue with STD's? Let's just ignore these, eh? You're so good at it after all.

Proper upbringing is the same thing. You don't take into account abusive mothers or fathers, which make up the vast majority of "improper" upbringing. What you really mean is that the dirty, dirty gays and lesbians couldn't possibly raise a child, because it's just so wrong. I hate you so much.[/colour]

Evolution - Joke of a science. People like to believe in it, because they can be their own gods. They can't really explain anything when asked.

[colour=#005FFF]Continuing the trend of being so very wrong and having not the slightest clue as to what the fuck, you're wrong. Evolution is science. It's provable. It's accepted globally by everyone who actually matters. Even religious people have begun shuffling about uncomfortably, mumbling something about how their religious texts have agreed with Darwin all along, then storming off grunting about metaphors and similes. People don't need to believe in it, and they certainly don't need / want to be their own gods, because - and you might not have caught on to this yet, because you're stupid - they don't need to. Evolution exists, whether or not you believe in it, and most of us are strong / smart enough to deal with life without needing an invisible sky wizard to look to / excuse us for being who we are. DIAF.[/colour]

Israel - How can a nation come back together after being scattered to the 4 corners of the world? God did it.

[colour=#005FFF]Yes, because humans aren't capable of amazing feats on their own. Man on the moon? God did it.[/colour]

Shelters - When the rubber hits the road. Gays come in, sick of the life-style, then change, some go back.

[colour=#005FFF]If I were a vindictive person, every time you mentioned your homeless shelter, I would put a penny in a jar. When that jar was nice and full, I would walk past as many homeless people as I could on my way to the bank to deposit it into my account, laughing the entire way. This would have the bonus of you possibly shutting the hell up about your god-damn shelter, which no-one - NO-ONE, mark you - cares about.

But I'm not that person, so how about this? For every day you don't post in these forums, I'll put a penny in a jar and then donate the proceeds to charity. Come on, Eras! You have the chance to do some actual good here![/colour]

Usually anyone who does not want to live the right way, doesn't want to put forth the effort to change, to be normal.

[colour=#005FFF]"The right way". "Normal". Classic Eras. Shut up, you miserable excuse for a human being. I hope every little bit of hate you've dished out is revisited upon you a thousand fold. You could not be more wrong about everything if you tried.[/colour]

[athanasios]

Please stop this. We are wise enough to have a decent, civilized discussion here despite our different views.

Otherwise there is no other option left but to lock this thread.

-

Again it is a bit of topic-it would better be posted under 'exposed', but it provides food for thought:

State orders Detroit to close half its schools

And this seems to be a world wide trend (Same is happening here in Greece). It is evident that they don't give a damn s*** about childrens' education anymore. So unavoidably religious schools are going to mushroom.

[Lord J]

Good point, Ath, but really, this whole debate is virtually a disease that has been making its way through locked threads on this forum for quite a while now. I don't think locking it is really going to do anything to the phenomenon. Besides, aside from your "yay democracy, down with the dirty capitalist overlords" threads, there's not really a whole lot going on in PRP right now.

[Dante]

Considering eras' seeming obsession with STDs, it's kind of funny that his influence is comparable to a virus. And I hope, Lord J, that even if you don't approve of my methods (violent verbiage is fun), you at least appreciate that I am, in essence, fighting the good fight. Sisyphean though it might be.

And ath, shut the hell up already. You've been wandering into topics with admonitions for the participatns far too often of late. Newsflash: you're not a moderator, you're an annoying twerp who's been poking his nose where it's not welcome for too long. Quit it.

[Spectral Paladin]

In retrospect, maybe whoever locked it had anticipated this. This has gone horribly gone off topic. Perhaps I was younger and more naive but this isn't the PRP I remember; it now seems to be the place to beat up a hopelessly clueless fool. Don't expect me to believe there is any benevolence in this Dante; you 're enjoying this and have far too much time in your hands.

[Dante]

You can believe what you like, doesn't make it any less true.

[Lord J]

No Dante, go right ahead. I actually tend to enjoy your posts.

Paladin, it's a religious debate, so it's still ontopic, I think (mostly), and the "clueless fool" shouldn't be too clueless after 5+ threads.

Besides, there's really nothing else of interest in the PRP forum right now. It's not like it's spamming and preventing meaningful threads from being read.

[athanasios]

Dante: Well, at least I have the right to request from posters to debate decently in the threads I started. Or not?

-

Lord Johnsonius: Better a 'sick' patient than a patient inside the refrigerator of the morgue. ;-)

[Spectral Paladin]

Lord J, whatever happened to quality over quantity?

[ErasOmnius]

It is my nature to be kind. So I am going to be kind. Dante, we both know what we believe, and it seems that we are both not going to change.

I think we can all move forward without name-calling, fan fiction stories being written about one another, and general over-concerns about presumed typos and grammatical errors. We all have something to offer, and viewpoints that deserve to be heard.

[Dragoon Knight]

It is my nature to be kind. So I am going to be kind. Dante, we both know what we believe, and it seems that we are both not going to change.

I think we can all move forward without name-calling, fan fiction stories being written about one another, and general over-concerns about presumed typos and grammatical errors. We all have something to offer, and viewpoints that deserve to be heard.

[colour=#005FFF]You just stole a penny's worth of aid from the homeless. And you still haven't answered any of the questions or challenges put to you.

How does it feel, being such a colossal failure?[/colour]