Post-Mortem: A Discussion on the Afterlife

[Edric O]

Oh, dear. A point of clarification -  I don

[ErasOmnius]

There are many posts that I did not read, that is true. So I apologise in advance if I bring up something else that has already been discussed.

Alright, fine. What about the four horsemen, then? John does not give any accompanying explanations in the text to point out that they are anthropomorphic representations of war, famine, and other disasters. So do you expect literal horsemen?

Here we go:

Revelation, Chapter 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Something new is going to happen in the world that has not happened before! World-wide coordinated murder, world-wide coordinated hunger, two super-nations whose leaders are possessed by Death and Hell.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is Jesus Christ

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

True World-wide coordinated muder and war. There's going to be a lot of martyrs, such that has never been seen before in history

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

World-wide Hyper-inflation. Coming to a store near you soon when the dollar and Euro collapses due to deficit spending, setting off a COMPLETE global complete economic and trade collapse.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Death, Satan himself. Satan [the Enemy] has the right to kill humans, since Adam invited death into the world. Hell [Abbadon, an arch-devil], released from the Abyss earlier in human-kind's history in Rev 9. They are working together, possessing the two leaders of mankind's final 2 Empires. They will be allowed to consolidate their power using the sword, hunger [controlling the world's food supply], and death, and the beasts of the earth [the 2 supra-national entities that they rule].

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The people that were slain by the red horsemen, who are controlled by Death and Hell, who are possessing the leaders of the 2 multi-national empires.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Not until almost, perhaps every Christian, is killed by the False Prophet [possessed by Death] and Beast [possessed by Hell], shall Jesus return.

[Wolf]

It seems like you made most of this up. Where do you get the two super nations from? Why do you identify the first horseman of the apocalypse as Jesus Christ? Where do you get possession from for Death and Hell?

At least you recognize that the four horseman are going to kill virtually all, if not all human beings. I believe all four quarters of the Earth are covered, here. Perhaps Hwi and I can end the silly "67% or 99.99%" argument--as if the wrongness of the notion of Christ coming back to slaughter humanity is merely a matter of degree.

EDIT: And, by the way... 2002 posts and still a Naib? When and what is my next rank?

[ErasOmnius]

It seems like you made most of this up. Where do you get the two super nations from?

From the bottom of Daniel's statue in Daniel 2. The Empire of Clay and the Empire of Iron [re-born] that are trying to unite at the End of the Age; just before the Rock comes and destroys them.

Why do you identify the first horseman of the apocalypse as Jesus Christ?

You're right, of the 4 horsemen this is the most controversial interpretation. Could be an unknown white rider, or could be Jesus Christ.

Where do you get possession from for Death and Hell?

I am saying that the Angel of Death is personally in this quote, the being Satan, and that he personally inhabits the False Prophet of Rev 13. This gives the leader [the False Prophet] the ability to perform 'miracles' to deceive. The Angel of Hell is the being know as Abaddon, an arch-devil, who is released from the Abyss by Satan, to possess the leader of the reborn 6th Iron Empire, the Eight Empire, which is akin to the Empire of Iron.

At least you recognize that the four horseman are going to kill virtually all, if not all human beings.

The difference is that I believe that God/Jesus allows the horsemen to be released so that Satan and Abbadon, inhabiting the False Prophet and the Beast, can kill all the Christians of the world, as well as many others.

I believe all four quarters of the Earth are covered, here.

We agree Wolf, we finally agree on something!

Perhaps Hwi and I can end the silly "67% or 99.99%" argument--as if the wrongness of the notion of Christ coming back to slaughter humanity is merely a matter of degree.

Christ, who is God, is coming back to live on the Earth. He cannot, and will not, live with those who accept the 'Mark' of the Beast, instituted by the False Prophet. So, since He is coming back to live on the Earth, they are killed under His direct orders, in Rev 19 and 20.

EDIT: And, by the way... 2002 posts and still a Naib? When and what is my next rank?

I think you should get a special bonus allotment for word count.

[Dante]

Dante, I know you're reading...

Eras, I've come to the conclusion that you're making up pretty much everything now. If I was at all interested in reading about people who don't exist then I'd take up the bible, so stop trying to reopen an argument that got the last iteration locked.

Edit: Wolf, I think the next rank comes at 2500, but I don't remember what it is.

[chatfsh]

I must respectfully disagree with the notion that 99.99% of mankind will be exterminated during the tribulation for the following reasons:

1. Jesus returns at the end of the great tribulation, (after all of the seals have been broken and the bowls of wrath have been poured out upon the earth), to confront an immense multi-national military force led by the 8th King/Beast and the False Prophet.

2. After Christ destroys every member of this massive world army, Satan is imprisoned so that he may no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years are over.  Again, if ALL of the individual citizens of the nations have been slaughtered, why would there be any need to worry about Satan misleading the nations in the future?

3. At Christ

[ErasOmnius]

I must respectfully disagree with the notion that 99.99% of mankind will be exterminated during the tribulation for the following reasons:

1. Jesus returns at the end of the great tribulation, (after all of the seals have been broken and the bowls of wrath have been poured out upon the earth), to confront an immense multi-national military force led by the 8th King/Beast and the False Prophet.

Agree

2. After Christ destroys every member of this massive world army, Satan is imprisoned so that he may no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years are over.  Again, if ALL of the individual citizens of the nations have been slaughtered, why would there be any need to worry about Satan misleading the nations in the future?

Everyone with the 'mark' is killed. People living in the hills, in caves that the False Prophet could not find; children who are 'not accountable' for their sin yet, and not yet 'mark'ed -- they survive, grow, and have children.

3. At Christ

[athanasios]

First horse rider is Jesus Christ.

The majority  of the true Christians will survive the great tribulation, even though Satan will kill some:

Practically all First Christians in Jerusalem left the city before it was destroyed by the Romans obeying Jesus prophecy! So we have an analogue for the great tribulation. The attack on true Christians, since now there is no literal place to escape (but spiritual only = the true church), like back in the first century, will cause Jesus' intervention = Armageddon. All those 'marked' = those who are not part of the true church will be executed and the Paradise that was lost due to Adamic sin will be restored on earth.

[Wolf]

ErasOmnius: if you feel you have a good reason for believing what you do, there's no reason to change it just because Hwi disagrees with you. It's interesting, actually: you just accepted what she told you without argument--is that purely because she claims to be on your "side?" If I put up a false front of being a doctrinaire Christian, would you roll over and agree with what I say, too? (Incidentally, isn't this what we're always saying "the enemy" or "the beast" or whoever is actually going to do? Satan's not going to challenge your beliefs outright, he's going to agree with you first. Think about it.) Is this all about the appearance of doctrinal unity for you people? This isn't the twelfth century, we are all allowed to have different ideas and beliefs, indeed, including and perhaps especially concerning religion.

Anyway. On to the games:

1.   Jesus returns at the end of the great tribulation, (after all of the seals have been broken and the bowls of wrath have been poured out upon the earth), to confront an immense multi-national military force led by the 8th King/Beast and the False Prophet.

You make the assumption that Revelation is consistent. I can write a fiction novel where the Earth is glassed by aliens and then talk about the Earth army rising to fight them. That doesn't mean that's what would really happen. If I really think about it, if all four quarters of the Earth are devastated by the horsemen, and a third is burned, and a third is plagued, and the seas are boiled, and the land is burned, there isn't going to be an army, and there's not going to be people. John can say whatever he wants, but even if we assume he's right, we create a logical inconsistency as opposed to a factual one. Hwi, think about it rationally. If the seals are opened, and Christ returns, there's going to be nothing left but bones. But, if you accept that the laws of the physical universe won't apply, and that people are going to be magically shielded by God, then ask yourself why God would shield enough people to form an army to fight Him under the banner of the Antichrist? It doesn't make any sense, because a being like God isn't going to care about the physical destruction of the planet. He's not going to care about fighting an "army" of mortals that he can think out of existence. Why does God suddenly have the attitude of a 12-year old playing Call of Duty, who wants to prove himself in what amounts to a meaningless wargame? It's all either metaphor, or poppycock, and there isn't going to be a cinematic war at the end of the world... at least, there isn't going to be one that involves God. If it happens, it will be because we brought it upon ourselves, not because God is cracking open seals.

2.   After Christ destroys every member of this massive world army, Satan is imprisoned so that he may no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years are over.  Again, if ALL of the individual citizens of the nations have been slaughtered, why would there be any need to worry about Satan misleading the nations in the future?

The problems here are so numerous that I'll never even get to them all. I mean, see above for one. So, Christ wants to prove his prowess in a battle that, if you think about it, an omnipotent God wouldn't even need to fight? He doesn't take any prisoners? Satan was the real reason that the army existed, even though, again, if we think about it, it's actually God that either allowed it to exist or orchestrated the events for its existing in the first place? Again, I know you brought this up because you wanted to illustrate the point that there will be "people" left after the tribulation, but I think all it does is undermine all of the reasons for why there would be a tribulation in the first place.

3.   At Christ

[Acriku]

I also can't imagine a future where people will follow anybody's orders on a grand scale to exterminate and persecute Christians alone, no matter who is possessing the False Prophet (God's lackey, the Devil). We just don't do that anymore. Our society has "grown up" beyond that. And I doubt the early writers of Revelations could have imagined such a future for their Children, let alone write about it.

[chatfsh]

So basically, Wolf, you (as a professed Christian) have insinuated that the Holy Bible is nothing more than an ancient book full of lies and deluded words of disgruntled madmen (sounds an awful lot like the words spoken to a certain woman named Eve long ago). Which puzzles me because if that

[Wolf]

Oh wow, again with the "false Christian" insinuation--and once again with the Satan thing. It's unfair for me to answer you, but since I really am more of an adult, I will. And the answer is... not at all. Look, Hwi, I think it's been fairly obvious throughout this thread and the others that I actually do think there's value in a lot of what the Bible says. I think you've been so focused on either forcing me to accept your view of religion or discrediting my faith that you've missed a lot of what I've been saying.

I think the possibility certainly exists that a lot of the early Christians, believe it or not, were human, and were imperfect. I even think the Council of Nicea, being an organization of human leaders, might have been imperfect, too, and that they had considerations other than pure religion that they brought to the table. They might have been wrong, or had other motivations. You can't ignore these possibilities, especially when you find yourself professing things that are inherently anti-Christian, as I see it. But that doesn't mean the whole Bible is wrong, or that the entire religion is a bad idea. Just because the Constitution was written by slave-owners doesn't mean that they were wrong about freedom. I think that analogy holds when applied to the Bible: a lot of the early Christians, many of the saints, weren't good people. I'm sorry, they weren't. But think about what that means: if I aspire to be a better person than the people you venerate blindly, is that not a noble aim? Am I not aspiring, literally, to a level of goodness that you have never considered?

And this is why I think a lot of what you say about the Bible is wrong, because ultimately I think it drives against the core of what Christianity is. About the Gospels. I think they're right: perhaps even objectively. Their message is one of universal brotherhood, peace, tolerance, acceptance, love, understanding, compassion, pacifism and faith. It's not all consistent, but I think the message on the whole is correct, and that's why I "ever became a Christian in the first place"--to provide a direct answer to your ugly question. I think this message is the "right" one, and I think things like taking any of Revelation at face-value, or the Old Testament stories, often fly in the face of that. (And, wait a second, didn't God make a covenant with Noah after the flood, promising never to do anything like that again? Huh, weird, Revelation definitely contradicts that.)

It's funny that you phrase your question like this:

I mean, they said that Jesus healed the sick, fed thousands with a couple of small fish, walked on water, silenced raging storms with a word, and raised people from the dead

[Acriku]

Let me see if I got this straight:

The world has evolved to a couple or few supernations. God and Jesus come down and destroy what our world has accomplished and been molded into, namely anyone and everyone's way of life (minus a couple synagogues). The devil comes down and possesses one of our leaders and tells them, basically the truth. Jesus did this. It is his fault. Christians follow Jesus, kill them all. With nothing of our normalcy surviving the destruction brought on by Jesus, we band together into the anti-Destroyer-of-Worlds army and try to fight for our lives and for any sort of vengeance against this slaughter. We obviously fail horribly, and get to be tortured for an obscenely long time for our troubles. All the while Jesus brings a thousand years of peace to a world that very well could've had that peace before the onslaught. Yay God!

[ErasOmnius]

Oh wow, again with the "false Christian" insinuation--and once again with the Satan thing. It's unfair for me to answer you, but since I really am more of an adult, I will. And the answer is... not at all.

Wolf, you get your cake and eat it too. You never come right out and say if there is really anything you are against in the area of sin. I tried to ask what denomination of Lutheran you were -- to try to understand you better, but you won't tell.

You have the luxury of just blanket saying that it is too hard to understand the Book, so why bother? You don't seem intellectually lazy, so what's really troubling you? Have you entered a field where it is not 'fashionable' to be a true Christian? I say that in sadness, because it is hard here in the West.

On another thread it was commented that I would never tell someone during an interview about my views on homosexuality. I have not had the chance to do so. I am actually a business owner, and have lost clients due to my stand on abortion--so I know how it can be.

In 2008 you gave an eloquent talk about abortion, a talk that was admirable, that you have since reversed. I am wondering how much of this is because of societal pressure in your life. Sincerely, I know that in your present state you and I will never agree, I am just trying to figure out what brought you to this point.

Let me see if I got this straight:

The world has evolved to a couple or few supernations. God and Jesus come down and destroy what our world has accomplished and been molded into, namely anyone and everyone's way of life (minus a couple synagogues). The devil comes down and possesses one of our leaders and tells them, basically the truth. Jesus did this. It is his fault. Christians follow Jesus, kill them all. With nothing of our normalcy surviving the destruction brought on by Jesus, we band together into the anti-Destroyer-of-Worlds army and try to fight for our lives and for any sort of vengeance against this slaughter. We obviously fail horribly, and get to be tortured for an obscenely long time for our troubles. All the while Jesus brings a thousand years of peace to a world that very well could've had that peace before the onslaught. Yay God!

Man strikes God's people first, not the other way around.

Rev 8 and Rev 9 are figurative, and are all about fallen angels .

God doesn't do anything plague-oriented to human-kind until AFTER the 2 possessed leaders of the 2 super-nations try to kill all of the Christians. [Rev 13] The people of the world willingly try to kill all of the Christians because of fear [of the armed forces of the False Prophet], hatred, some minor 'miracles' done by the False Prophet, and the ability to confiscate Christian's property.

Then the horrible plagues are sent by God.

Then the Jews begin to convert to Christianity, so they become the new enemy of the 2 super-nations. The two super-nations send their army to the valleys surrounding Jerusalem [Meggido, or Armageddon] to kill them. The Son [Jesus] comes back to the Earth to save the Jews, does so. He then destroys the 2 giant armies, kills all people of the Earth with the 'mark', and starts the thousand year reign of peace.

We can't have peace on earth at anytime before this, because not everyone has God's world paradigm view.

[Lord J]

The scary part of this discussion is how leaders of the fundie Right here in the US, and the leaders of the fundie Muslims in the near and middle east, are basically preparing for this endtime war (as noted by one Bill Maher) and it's becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy.

If it weren't for that fact that all the religious will pull us down with it, I would almost consider it poetic justice that they are, pretty much, just going to fry themselves into oblivion for the sake of some crackpot on an island, 1500-2000 years ago.

[chatfsh]

*Sigh*

Wolf, you completely missed the point of my questions concerning the validity of the Gospels.  You see, I have complete faith in all that is recorded about Christ in the Gospels, especially the part about Him being the Son of God.  I was attempting to demonstrate to you that just because a particular account may seem illogical, far-fetched or highly improbable (according to feeble human reasoning), it doesn

[AUselessServant]

After reading some recent discussions on this forum I decided to sign up and share a few things.

First, to all the Christains on this board...read the Bible correctly, there is a reason Revelation is placed last. Like one of our brothers once told a person who kept talking about Revelation: 'you have been reading the Bible backwards'.

Revelation is a complicated book and we see clearly in the book itself that the only one capable of opening the seals is Jesus Himself, so it requires personal contact with Jesus to understand Revelation. But I would advice us all to seek personal contact with Jesus to taste His love and sweetness and to learn how to live a holy life...Revelation will come later. This applies first to me and then to the rest of you.

A few more words on the Word of God before moving to the topic of this thread. The Word of God is life and spirit, as Christ said. The Word of God has a Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The word of God has to be used with God's Spirit and not another spirit! When the devil approached Jesus to test Him, he used the Word of God, but he used it with a demonic spirit. In short, he used it to kill, to destroy and not to build up. The true Spirit of the Word of God builds up, it does not insult.

Now, on afterlife...this discussion is already quite deep, better to focus on the cross of Christ and His eternal love, but I think it might be useful to look at this issue, as many people have difficulties understanding God's reasons for doing the things He does.

One question that has always been raised is...if God is love, why does He allow people to go to hell?

First, what is hell? Some say its some place where demons burn you day and night...or something like that. There is nothing in the Bible depicting such a punishment. Hell is simply a place to wait untill the judgement day comes, then those who did not love God will be thrown into the lake of fire. Now, the lake of fire was not prepared for man, but for the devil and his angels (Mat 25:41).

God gave people free choice and humans did not choose God. God does not force people to choose Him, but He does put a great effort in convincing people to choose for Him, which we see in the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. The reason why we have wars/deaths and all kinds of other bad stuff is because we did not choose God and God allows us, to do what we want, since that is what we choose for and we choose for wars etc., so don't blaim God.

When God created humans, the purpose of man was to live eternally with God and to be filled with His heavenly life. Only when a human has contact with God, he will live according to his purpose and experience true happiness. If this purpose is not met, humans will experience extreme unhappiness. In this world, you can keep yourself bussy, or make yourself think that the emptiness that you feel will be filled by all kinds of things (money, desires, glory etc.). But once you die, you have don't have Jesus nor anything to keep you bussy and you will then feel eternal death, that is hell/lake of fire. There will be no demons that throw you into acid or something like that in the lake of fire...they will be suffering too.

So why does God allow people to feel such unhappiness/torture if He loves us? A lot of people have difficulty with this question, but the answer is quite simple, lets look at John 3:16-21:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Note verse 19 and 20, it explains what condemnation is...it is not accepting Jesus, because you love sin over Jesus. Verse 20 goes further by saying that you hate light (=Jesus=God). Now here is the whole problem, people HATE God, thus God puts them into a place where they are not in His presence. However, since humans were made to be with God, they will feel extreme unhappiness/torture/pain or whatever you want to call it. You cannot expect God to take you to heaven if you hate Him. God is not going to force you to be in His presence if you hate His presence. So the reason why God allows people to go to hell is because people HATE God and thus hate the other place called heaven, where there is the presence of God.

God is love and wants to save all man, He loves all man, but man has free choice. He loves those who hate Him and gives them many chances to repent...look at your lives, how many times has God sent His word to you? How many times have you rejected it? How many times have you hated light and have you not come to the light?

Anyone who rejects Jesus goes to hell, because he/she hates God. If a child hates his parents, the parents can beat him up and lock him up so he stays with them...but is that right? God will not tie you up and keep you in heaven if you hate His presence, if you don't want Him, He will let you go and that is hell...a place where there is no God, no Life, no Jesus and no stuff to keep you bussy so you don't experience the absence of God, that is eternal pain.

To all atheists, I would like to share something with you...think with me for a little bit please. If there is a God, He must be alive right?

If He is alive, then it must be possible to have contact with Him...right? If He is alive, He can talk, walk, touch, hear etc...right? So that would mean that if we believe in Him and seek Him, we will find Him (He will reveal Himself) and we will experience His presence and His love. I am talking about a real experience...not something that happens in your head, real contact with God, something that takes place in your spirit and heart. God offers this to all who seek Him. Seek God, ask Him to reveal Himself to you, if you are not sure about His existence, that is okey, He can reveal Himself to you, but only if you are truelly sincere in the search for God. Some people say, I prayed and nothing happened, but these people 'prayed' while they were already convinced in their hearts that God does not exist. However, if you are only unsure and would really like to find out, then pray with a sincere heart, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will, for He has said: Seek and thy shall find!. And when you find Him, you will not fear hell, but you will find true happiness in your life through Jesus Christ. God is a living God and it is possible to have communion with Him, to experience His presence everyday and to talk with Him and hear Him talk to you.  Don't take anything less then real contact with God...many people worship God as if He is dead. Their prayers are like talking in the air, words go out of their mouth, but nothing comes back from heaven, thats not the right way. A real prayer is two way contact, we talk to God and His presence covers us and our heart is filled with joy. I am not telling atheists to kneel down and talk to the air, I am telling you, God is alive, you can experience His presence, have two way contact, seek this and be convinced yourself. I am not telling you to believe because I say He exists, but seek Him, experience Him and believe based on your meeting with Jesus. Just like in John 4 a women goes and tells her towns people about Jesus and when they meet Him, they say the following:  42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

I wish all people could say this :).

May God bless you all and shine His light on all of you.

[athanasios]

The lake of fire is not to be taken literally:

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." - Revelation 20:14

Death and Hades are not real persons. > The lake of fire is not a real lake of fire.

It "is the second death." = eternal annihilation, like when melted metal consumes anything that is thrown in it.

-

ErasOmnius:

I do not expect a massive conversion of Jewish people to true Christianity as much as I do not expect a massive conversion of others (fake Christians, other religions, atheists) to true Christianity. 'Narrow is the gate and a few...'

-

Yes the majority will be destroyed in Armageddon and it will be their own fault. It is moronity to accuse Jesus or God for this. "God wants everyone to be saved", but most people will deliberately choose to oppose him and attack his true servants.

So this is a warning to all those ridiculing Jesus: Stop or you are driving straight ahead to your eternal destruction. When that day arrives you will be inexcusable and you will not be able to say that nobody warned you.

I am actually a business owner, and have lost clients due to my stand on abortion--so I know how it can be.

Those are racists and morons. Better you not do business with such scum. It is unthinkable one's religious views to affect his business dealings. We do not live in the Dark Ages or do we?

[Acriku]

Suppose there was a man walking along in the woods and he happened upon a bear caught in a trap.  Out of compassion the man decides that he must rescue the injured animal.  He realizes that first he must sedate the wild animal so that he can extricate it from the trap.  Not understanding what’s happening, the terrified bear cries out in alarm as it feels the darts from the tranquilizer gun strike its body.  The bear looks over and sees the man holding the gun walking toward him.  Believing that the man is trying to harm him, the frightened bear growls at him as it tries in vain to crawl away.  The man speaks consolingly to the bear trying to explain that he is there to set him free, but of course, the bear cannot comprehend the words and collapses believing that the man means him harm.  A few seconds later, excruciating pain rips through the bear’s body and its eyes fly open to find the man standing over him, pushing the bear’s leg a little further into the trap in order to release it.  Not understanding this, the bear lashes out with its last bit of strength, clawing the man before it finally succumbs to the effects of the tranquilizer.  Ignoring his own pain, the man releases the bear’s leg and mercifully tends to its wound.  The bear will survive and live out the rest of its natural life hating and fearing men because it never comprehended what the compassionate man did for him that day.

If the man created the bear trap and expected the bear to avoid it himself, then we're getting closer. If he has the ability to remove the trap, and yet does not, then we're even closer. If the man never helps the bear once it does fall into the trap, then we're almost on it. If the man put a nice flank steak on the trap,

!

ErasOmnius:

I do not expect a massive conversion of Jewish people to true Christianity as much as I do not expect a massive conversion of others (fake Christians, other religions, atheists) to true Christianity. 'Narrow is the gate and a few...'

Yes and since a billion people are not considered "few" I'd be very interested in how many Christians get shanked come judgement day :)

[Wolf]

*Sigh*

Try not to let my dogged persistence exhaust your pride.

Wolf, you completely missed the point of my questions concerning the validity of the Gospels.  You see, I have complete faith in all that is recorded about Christ in the Gospels, especially the part about Him being the Son of God.  I was attempting to demonstrate to you that just because a particular account may seem illogical, far-fetched or highly improbable (according to feeble human reasoning), it doesn

[Dante]

"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion

[ErasOmnius]

The scary part of this discussion is how leaders of the fundie Right here in the US, and the leaders of the fundie Muslims in the near and middle east, are basically preparing for this endtime war (as noted by one Bill Maher) and it's becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy.

If it weren't for that fact that all the religious will pull us down with it, I would almost consider it poetic justice that they are, pretty much, just going to fry themselves into oblivion for the sake of some crackpot on an island, 1500-2000 years ago.

True Christians do not control the West; neo-pagan oligarchs do. What people are seeing around them is God allowing the sin factor to increase so that everything can be in place when He returns. The Age of Gentile Grace is coming to an end, soon people will no longer have to worry about any 'contact' with the Holy Spirit, who is God, through their conscience. Unrepentant Gentiles will be 'free' for 7 years to do what they want.

He is going to turn off the guilt -- an ultra-frightening moment.

Then human-kind will be ripe for the Two Leaders, who will proclaim to issue in a New Age for mankind.

That's because mankind has been set up: Love evolution, hate creationism. Hate monogamy-only sex w/opposite gender; love porn, 'hooking up', and the rise of bi-sexuality. Hate drinking alcohol for its' medicinal properties, love getting drunk. Hate saving money for future and family; love the greed of easy credit with no real intention of paying debts back.

If you take out a terrorist prepared to bomb a sports arena and save thousands, are you condemned to the same fate as an SS Einsatzgruppen? That would be unjust, so I don't think so. The touchstone is justice--and only God is fully capable of a perfect conception of justice. We just try our best, and call them as we see them. Pretending to know the absolute terms is playing God, which, if I were a bettering man, I bet would pretty solidly bar you from reward in the afterlife.

Yes, a Christian who works as a sniper is not 'turning the other cheek'.

The Christian in the audience has to be prepared to die at a moment's notice, so has no fear of death.

I think Galileo said that God would not have given us our reason if He did not want us to use it. If something is so obviously unreasonable to us, such as the indiscriminate and carnivalesque slaughter of humanity, then that, too, is the work of God.

Duh. Wouldn't it be cool to show the same to them as well as to our fellow man?

I know you won't really address what I'm saying, but here it goes.

This is the first time in Christianity's history that its' so-called followers are saying that there is no need to change sinful ways -- at all. So you, and others like you, have ripped out the core of Christianity.

[Dante]

And on the subject of that Galileo quote:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."

- Jefferson again.

I think I have Acriku to thank for that one.

[Wolf]

This is the first time in Christianity's history that its' so-called followers are saying that there is no need to change sinful ways -- at all. So you, and others like you, have ripped out the core of Christianity.

As always, your increasing personal animosity toward me is not only indicative of your fundamentally un-Christian disdain for your fellow man, but also of your personal insecurities with respect to your faith.

The reason I don't address you often, ErasOmnius, is because either your prose is so awkward that I can't work up the mental effort to unravel it, or I have already addressed your point in some form at an earlier stage, and you either didn't read it or didn't get it, and, again, I often cannot command the mental effort to respond. This is not one of those times. You've completely misrepresented what I said. I did not say there's no need for change, in fact, I think a lot of things need to change. Aggressive ignorance, for example. Sin is what it is, and it is intuitively evident when harm has been done or injury inflicted, and even a sociopath is aware of the wrongness of his actions. The key is to avoid inflicting harm on each other, be it physical or psychological, and to understand in context what the right course of action is. There is no single rule or guideline that can fully encompass this thought, save, perhaps, for the Golden Rule. The fact of the matter is that the viciousness inherent in your arguments and Hwi's are fundamentally sinful, because they are actions contemplated in the pursuit of sinful desires--I can only suppose what they might be, but it is what I believe based on the ever-escalating viciousness of the replies. I have been called Satan, destroyer of worlds, corrupter of souls, liar, insulter, false Christian and so forth in various forms, either explicitly or implicitly, but if any of you actually stand back and tried to apply a label to my position, you'd find it would probably be "Christian apologism." I don't think that's actually Satanic: if anything, I'm trying to get more people to be comfortable learning about and accepting Christ than otherwise. Your and Hwi's only possible counter is that I'm also an apologist for sin, and that is, in fact, not the case, and it is not supportable. You have no evidence for this position, and even if you did, it would be refuted by my comments above in this paragraph. You really should try to listen to what I'm saying, and not react purely out of Pavlovian instinct. I have good reason to believe that to do otherwise is the path to ruin, or, to quote Tassadar: "I never believed that they would go so far. In the face of total annihilation they still cling to their failing traditions!"

[Lord J]

True Christians do not control the West; neo-pagan oligarchs do. What people are seeing around them is God allowing the sin factor to increase so that everything can be in place when He returns. The Age of Gentile Grace is coming to an end, soon people will no longer have to worry about any 'contact' with the Holy Spirit, who is God, through their conscience. Unrepentant Gentiles will be 'free' for 7 years to do what they want.

He is going to turn off the guilt -- an ultra-frightening moment.

Then human-kind will be ripe for the Two Leaders, who will proclaim to issue in a New Age for mankind.

That's because mankind has been set up: Love evolution, hate creationism. Hate monogamy-only sex w/opposite gender; love porn, 'hooking up', and the rise of bi-sexuality. Hate drinking alcohol for its' medicinal properties, love getting drunk. Hate saving money for future and family; love the greed of easy credit with no real intention of paying debts back.

"Love evolution, hate creationism" - Yeah, because we've learned as a society to actually live in the real world, based on the idea of physical causes and effects.

"Hate monogamy-only sex w/ opposite gender" - Have you even read my posts? You're so obsessed with gaybashing that you've lost touch with the reality that the majority of us; yes, even the dirty agnostic, liberal, civil-rights oriented folks; are actually heterosexual, and are either in or want to be in a monogamous relationship.

"Hate drinking alcohol for its' [sic] medicinal properties" - Grain alcohol exists as a psychopharmaceutical. That is all. There is no other clear benefit from its ingestion that cannot be obtained any other way. Besides that, there are many, many, many different levels of alcohol consumption. Maybe the reason that people "love getting drunk" is because they are rebelling against obsessive religiousity.

"Hate saving money" - Because that's so easy to do in the current environ ::) . Any American should be vaguely familiar with the sheer amount of money spent by companies on advertising every year, and the very basis of modern advertising is based on the work of one John B. Watson, whose whole perspective was that people learn emotional responses (particularly approach and avoidance) based upon pairing with biologically significant stimuli. Seriously, why do you think you're a Christian? I'll tell you, it's because some arbitrary stimulus class called "Jesus" has been paired with love, sex, acceptance, money, etc. and things that are not considered "Christian" (homosexuality, witchcraft, choice, the "liberal agenda") has been paired with ridicule and pain. What I'm saying is simple: people have no more of a choice in whether to buy iPods on credit while on unemployment than you have marching in a gay pride parade.

Now moving up.... "Turning off the guilt." I think I've already covered my perspective regarding that statement, except to say that I've heard guilt described as a "generalized conditioned aversive stimulus". Essentially, it's a way for people to control your behavior when they aren't even in the room with you!

"True Christians" - The twelve disciples? No, I agree, the twelve are no longer alive. Everyone else who claims to be a Christian are basically followers of the alleged writings of his disciples and people who lived years after the man (if, in fact he actually lived) died. Of course, you, Hwi, Athan, and this Servant person all seem convinced that you are True Christians, so I'm not going to make very much headway with that argument.

What's interesting to me is how so many things have changed in human life due to technology, but we continue to cling to a perception of an ancient mythology, even though the very meaning of the words that the mythology is based upon has changed with technological and cultural advance. It's interesting to apply this same analysis to the US Constitution. I'm reminded of a story I heard about recently of a Tea Partier who carries a copy of the Constitution around with her in her purse at all times, but has never actually read it.