Interstellar travel before the melange

[Mahdi]

But if such substitutes exist, then why is Melange so vital for space travel?

Once you try spice, nothing else will suffice.

[Anathema]

and the Bene Gesserit were the pro-democracy Women.

Wtf?

[Dante]

No, he's right there. The BG, while largely dictatorial in their methods, practiced a broad form of democracy amongst themselves. It was that discovery that tipped the scales and led to Dama killing Lucilla, if I remember correctly.

The Honoured Matres were, however you look at it, an unfinished concept. Not a poorly defined one, because their story had not yet been told. We still do not know, for example, what they were running from or why they reacted with such hostility to the old Imperium.

[MrFlibble]

The Honoured Matres were, however you look at it, an unfinished concept. Not a poorly defined one, because their story had not yet been told. We still do not know, for example, what they were running from or why they reacted with such hostility to the old Imperium.

I think it was pretty clearly stated in Heretics that their violence came from the way of life they adopted. Their methods of harnessing power were self-destructive from the beginning. As for the enemy from whom they fled, I believe Frank could consciously leave it to the readers. As it is (again) hinted in Heretics, the Scattering, with its infinite possibilities, could produce anything.

But if such substitutes exist, then why is Melange so vital for space travel?

Those were substitutes for awakening the Other Memory through the agony, they did not grant any prescience at all.

[Mahdi]

Those were substitutes for awakening the Other Memory through the agony, they did not grant any prescience at all.

I don't believe that was ever stated anywhere.  Nor does it make much sense, considering the close ties between Other Memory and prescience in the novels. 

The male counterpart of the Reverend Mother is the Kwisatz Haderach, who has not just Other Memory but also prescience.  If you factor in that the main purpose of the BG since near the founding of the order, likely before they started using the spice, was the production of their Kwisatz Haderach (I know, spelt wrong) then obviously these pre-spice drugs (spice substitutes is a misnomer, spice is really the substitute for these other drugs) were either known or expected to cause some form of prescience. 

Plus, Abominations are an ancient problem for the BG.  Abominations have prescience.  I'd say it's likely that abominations also predate use of the spice essence.

Most tellingly, ignoring the prequels, there is the Tlielaxu Kwisatz Haderach, created by them before the public revelation of the spices role in prescience.  So they must have used something other than spice essence to cause his transformation.

[SandChigger]

Go easy on him.

Go easy on <b>this</b>. ::)

[SandChigger]

I don't believe that was ever stated anywhere.  Nor does it make much sense, considering the close ties between Other Memory and prescience in the novels.

Mmmm ... a bit ambiguous, isn't it? The spice and prescience, clearly related, judging from the Navigators and RMs who exhibit the ability. But the Navigators exhibit no ability to access OM.

The male counterpart of the Reverend Mother is the Kwisatz Haderach, who has not just Other Memory but also prescience.

Paul & Leto (II) Atreides had prescience, but was that definitely one of the things the BG were breeding for? Weren't they more interested in a male who could access what they could not, namely male Other Memory?

If you factor in that the main purpose of the BG since near the founding of the order, likely before they started using the spice, was the production of their Kwisatz Haderach (I know, spelt wrong) then obviously these pre-spice drugs (spice substitutes is a misnomer, spice is really the substitute for these other drugs) were either known or expected to cause some form of prescience.

The BG came into existence around or before the time of the Jihad, and were fairly highly organized (Mother Superiors, archives, OM) by the time of the Battle of Corrin. The Kwisatz Haderach project was in effect for only around 4,000~5,000 years (99 Duniverse "generations" ... which seem to be about 45 years or so). They were up to other stuff before they got the KH fever. ;)

Plus, Abominations are an ancient problem for the BG.  Abominations have prescience.  I'd say it's likely that abominations also predate use of the spice essence.

Agree with this caveat: the Abominations that we KNOW about have prescience (Alia & Leto II). But they both also had them wacky Atreides genes.

Most tellingly, ignoring the prequels, there is the Tlielaxu Kwisatz Haderach, created by them before the public revelation of the spices role in prescience.  So they must have used something other than spice essence to cause his transformation.

Insufficient information, all around.

    "What was the origin of your kwisatz haderach?" the Reverend Mother asked.

    "We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational." (DM)

[MrFlibble]

I don't believe that was ever stated anywhere.  Nor does it make much sense, considering the close ties between Other Memory and prescience in the novels.

Couple of quotes:

I am now a Reverend Mother, Jessica realized.

And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her.

This wasn't exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew.

The end result was the same.

Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor, saw the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and Harmonthep. Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible flower. And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina - first by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through their own Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak... and now developed to subtle strengthen Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they've used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."

"I'll handle this, Jessica," the old woman said. "Now, lad, do you know about the Truthsayer drug?"

"You take it to improve your ability to detect falsehood," he said. "My mother's told me."

"Have you ever seen truthtrance?"

He shook his head. "No."

"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory - in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past... but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot - into both feminine and masculine pasts."

TRUTHTRANCE: semihypnotic trance induced by one of several "awareness spectrum" narcotics in which the petit betrayals of deliberate falsehood are apparent to the truthtrance observer. (Note: "awareness spectrum" narcotics are frequently fatal except to desensitized individuals capable of transforming the poison-configuration within their own bodies.)

WATER OF LIFE: an "illuminating" poison (see Reverend Mother). Specifically, that liquid exhalation of a sandworm (see Shai-hulud) produced at the moment of its death from drowning which is changed within the body of a Reverend Mother to become the narcotic used in the sietch tau orgy. An "awareness spectrum" narcotic.

This is about the spice essence being one of several drugs that allowed to access Other Memory. As for prescience, it is nowhere stated specifically that OM had any ties to prescience at all. Actually, there does not seem to be any such connection besides the fact that characters who had the Atreides genes and thus tended to have prescient abilities also had access to Other Memory.

The male counterpart of the Reverend Mother is the Kwisatz Haderach, who has not just Other Memory but also prescience.

Throughout Dune, KH is described as a "male BG" who can look into the male side of the Other Memory. I don't think Mohiam or anyone else ever states that KH has to be prescient.

Plus, Abominations are an ancient problem for the BG.  Abominations have prescience.  I'd say it's likely that abominations also predate use of the spice essence.

Alia did not have prescience, at least not how Paul had it. She dosed herself with spice trying to get visions, but everything was in vain. I think it is also never mentioned anywhere that Ghanima was prescient.

[Mahdi]

None of those quotes you posted states that the drugs used do not cause prescience.  Not a single one.  In fact, they seem to strengthen my argument - not only do they not deny that the drugs cause prescience, but they confirm that the only difference between them and the spice essence is that the spice essence is more efficient and "once you try spice, nothing else will suffice".

Of course Mohaim and al l he rest know the KW has prescience. The thing that made them suspect Paul was a possibility to begin with was his prescient dreams at the beginning of the book!  The whole reason Mohaim came to see him were those dreams.

Alia did so have prescience, it just wasn't as strong as Pauls and he hid his vision from her, as he hid it from everyone else.  There are several examples of it, from her ceremony where she sees the future at her temple for her worshippers who ask questions to her bridging time to leave a message to Paul in his vision in the original Dune to her and Paul explaining prescience to Irulan and Stilgar during a council meeting.  You're too knowledgable about the books to deny Alia, Leto II, and Ghanima have prescience.  That's a ridiculous comment.

[Mahdi]

Mmmm ... a bit ambiguous, isn't it? The spice and prescience, clearly related, judging from the Navigators and RMs who exhibit the ability. But the Navigators exhibit no ability to access OM.

Paul & Leto (II) Atreides had prescience, but was that definitely one of the things the BG were breeding for? Weren't they more interested in a male who could access what they could not, namely male Other Memory?

The BG came into existence around or before the time of the Jihad, and were fairly highly organized (Mother Superiors, archives, OM) by the time of the Battle of Corrin. The Kwisatz Haderach project was in effect for only around 4,000~5,000 years (99 Duniverse "generations" ... which seem to be about 45 years or so). They were up to other stuff before they got the KH fever. ;)

Agree with this caveat: the Abominations that we KNOW about have prescience (Alia & Leto II). But they both also had them wacky Atreides genes.

Insufficient information, all around.

i

s

I'd say the fact that Paul's presceint visions were the first signs of his potential and that they were the reason Mohaim came to test him is proof that presceince was an expected capability of the KW.  Additionally, there is no way that a man who can have other memory would be nearlyt he super being that the BG make him out to be int he novels.  So he can remember his male ancestors memories and has BG abilities:  So what?  Without something else, like presceince, how can that really help the BG?

As for everythign else, you're right, nothing is ever clearly stated (but its not even vaguely denied either) but I do believe that the only logical explanation is that these other drugs did give limited prescient abilities.

[MrFlibble]

None of those quotes you posted states that the drugs used do not cause prescience.  Not a single one.  In fact, they seem to strengthen my argument - not only do they not deny that the drugs cause prescience, but they confirm that the only difference between them and the spice essence is that the spice essence is more efficient and "once you try spice, nothing else will suffice".

Okay, how about this:

a) It is nowhere stated that Reverend Mothers necessarily have prescient powers;

b) It is nowhere stated that Guild Navigators have any access to Other Memories.

I have never thought about how prescience works in Duniverse, but I don't think there's a direct connection between prescience and Other Memory - unless the nature of prescience is to calculate possible futures from the knowledge of the past, in which case any extensive access to Other Memory would be very helpful, if not absolutely required. However, I'm not sure this is how prescience works - or, at least, I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere that this is the case.

[Mahdi]

I agree:  Reverend Mothers do not have prescience, navigators do not have other memory.  I reiterate:  So what?  Isn't that one of the unique qualities of the KW?  He can do what the RM's do, only better (genetic memory both male and female) and he can do what the Navigators de, only better (much more presceint abilities/control without living in a tube of spice gas).  

We arn't arguing about who has what abilities, we're discussing what causes those abilities and the connections that implies.  Spice essence causes both Other Memory in females and prescience in males/abominations.  Other drugs also cause other memory.   The only difference between these other drugs and spice essence is that spice essence is more effecient and that once spice essence is used one cannot revert to using the older drugs.  This is stated in your own quotations.  Is it really such a stretch to assume these other drugs also caused prescience in males? It isn;t unusual for drugs to have differing effects on people due to sex, age, etc. and we know for a fact that the spice does.

The facts remain:

-  Space folding existed before the discovery of spice essence.

-  The limits on thinking machines existed before the discovery of the spice essence.

-  There are only two known ways to navigate a ship through foldspace:  Mechanical (banned) and Prescient

-  Other Memory and Prescience are both triggered by the same drug - Spice Essence

-  Reverend Mothers used drugs other than spice essence to trigger other memmory before the discovery of the essence, and the only noted differences in the novels is that these pre-essence drugs are less effecient and that upon utilizing spice essence, they are no longer viable alernatives.  

-  Abminations appear to have been known of before the discovery of the spice essence.

-  The abominations we have been exposed to all have prescient abilities

-  The tlielaxu developed their own presceint being before public revelation that spice essence trigered prescience

-  The BG at the very least suspected there KW would have prescient abilities due to thier interest in Paul's visions as a child.

No, it does not prove conclusively that these other drugs cause prescience,  but I think you have to agree that it is a logical explanation for pre-spice foldspace capabilities.  Right or wrong, we'll never know until Zombie Herbert shows up.

[MrFlibble]

I do agree with most of your summary, but I'm sill not convinced that drugs other than spice could cause prescience. If that were true, why would the Guild fear the destruction of the spice so much? The navigators had only limited prescience, and if other drugs could maintain it, why would the dependence on the spice be so great?

-  Other Memory and Prescience are both triggered by the same drug - Spice Essence

This does not necessarily mean that other drugs that triggered Other Memories would also allow for prescience. It is known that certain real-life medical drugs can produce a combination of effects, while others produce only some of those effects separately.

-  Reverend Mothers used drugs other than spice essence to trigger other memmory before the discovery of the essence, and the only noted differences in the novels is that these pre-essence drugs are less effecient and that upon utilizing spice essence, they are no longer viable alernatives.

Apparently, they could not act as viable replacements for those who were already addicted to spice.

-  Abminations appear to have been known of before the discovery of the spice essence.

-  The abominations we have been exposed to all have prescient abilities

As SandChigger pointed out above, this could be ascribed to their Atreides genes, and not to their nature as Abominations (BTW, I think "pre-born" would be a more correct label for these people).

-  The tlielaxu developed their own presceint being before public revelation that spice essence trigered prescience

This can only be true if we assume that "being a Kwisatz Haderach" necessarily implies prescient abilities.

No, it does not prove conclusively that these other drugs cause prescience,  but I think you have to agree that it is a logical explanation for pre-spice foldspace capabilities.

I repeat my question from above, if there could be substitutes, then why was the Guild so afraid of losing access to the spice that they allowed Paul to topple the entire political balance of the Imperium when he threatened to destroy the spice on Arrakis? Why does Paul say that the oracular eye of the Navigators would close forever if the source of the spice were destroyed?

[Mahdi]

I do agree with most of your summary, but I'm sill not convinced that drugs other than spice could cause prescience. If that were true, why would the Guild fear the destruction of the spice so much? The navigators had only limited prescience, and if other drugs could maintain it, why would the dependence on the spice be so great?...

You answered your own question.  Once again, "Once you try spice, nothing else will suffice."  You can convert from other drugs to melange, you can't go from melange to other drugs.  Once you're addicted to it, you're addicted to it.  Without it, you die.  This is stated in several of those quotes you put up earlier.  There is no methadone for spice addicts. 

I repeat my question from above, if there could be substitutes, then why was the Guild so afraid of losing access to the spice that they allowed Paul to topple the entire political balance of the Imperium when he threatened to destroy the spice on Arrakis?  Why does Paul say that the oracular eye of the Navigators would close forever if the source of the spice were destroyed?

Um, because they don't all want to die the horrible death of melange withdrawel?  As for the oracular eye, it would be closed.  Again, you can't go from Melange to another drug.  Every.  Single.  Guild.  Navigator.  Would.  Die.  I doubt the Guild, which is run by navigators, would be too keen on that idea.  And even, for the hell of it, they were all willing to die a horrible, horrible death in order to spite Paul and decide to get some other navigators going on the other drugs.  Where do they get them?  They haven't been used for thousands of years.  Do they even exist anymore?  How can they manufacture enough in such a short space of time to keep instersteller comunication going between one million worlds?  Look at a modern day example:  How much small pox vaccine is there today?  What do you think would happen if that desease suddenly re-appeared?  Ya think society wouldn't be near collapse if a pandemic of that started in the US?  And it hasn't been that long since small pox was around.  Not a direct correlation, I know, but you see my point.

Even if the entire guild decided to kill off thier entire generation, there is no way they could find, manufacture, dadict, and train enough Guild navigators to get intersteller travel going again before the Empire collapsed.

You keep arguing against this idea, but have not present an opposin thesis other than conventional engines, which 1) is ridiculous as conventional engines cannot break the speed of light neccessary for interstellar travel and 2) even if they somehow could still need somone to navigate them.

I've proposed what seems to me to be the simplest, most logical, and most evidenced theory.  If you disagree, then tell me what you think fits better.

[SandChigger]

The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.

They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer <b>with some of the prescient abilities</b> found in Guild navigators.

OK, that shows that SOME prescience was PART of what they were aiming for. But they were BREEDING for it; there's no mention of the spice there.

I'm kinda concerned by the use of "cause" here. The spice doesn't "cause" either Other Memory or prescience.

Actively surviving a lethal overdose of "spice liquor" is what opens access to Other Memory. ("Spice liquor" is what Paul calls what the BG use at the end of <i>Dune</i>, presumably a concentrated liquid derived from regular spice; "spice essence" seems to be Water of Life. Before Jessica, the BG did not know of the Water of Life used by the Fremen in creating their wild Reverend Mothers.) The ability to counteract/neutralize poisons gained in that experience is doubtless what precludes for that individual any recourse to the other drugs/poisons available to and used by the BG. The experience also creates an incurable addiction to the spice.

As for prescience, it seems that the spice <b>amplifies</b> native abilities conferred by genetics. Isn't that what happens to Paul on Arrakis in an environment pervaded by the spice? The Fremen are probably the "spiciest" group in the Imperium next to the Navigators, but they don't seem to exhibit any unusual level of prescience ... which you would expect them to do if it were simply the spice which confers prescience.

The facts remain:

-  Space folding existed before the discovery of spice essence.

Right ... because the spice has nothing to do with the actual process of folding space. Purely physical/mechanical process, no hocus-pocus involved. If we could strap a Holtzman engine to your back, we could ride YOU to Alpha Centauri. ;)

(Personally, I think spacefolding existed for a couple of thousand years before the Jihad. But that's me for ya. :P )

-  The limits on thinking machines existed before the discovery of the spice essence.

Right. The injunctions are post-Jihad. The spice was used as a geriatric drug from the time of Shakkad the Wise. (But was he a Corrino or a pre-Jihad, non-Corrino emperor?)

(Snip three.)

-  Abminations appear to have been known of before the discovery of the spice essence.

Right. They were probably known from the time when the BG learned how to provoke a life-and-death crisis to open OM.

-  The abominations we have been exposed to all have prescient abilities

-  The tlielaxu developed their own presceint being before public revelation that spice essence trigered prescience

We're only familiar with the details of three "Abominations"; of the three, does Ghanima ever exhibit prescience? (As a fraternal twin, she could have a slightly different genetic structure than Leto. I believe Liege-Killer over on Jacurutu pointed out that it is possible, though rare, for fraternals to develop from a single fertilized egg. Dante?)

Even though the BG were indeed targeting prescience in their KH, is it warranted to assume that the BT were as well? Or that they achieved such?

-  The BG at the very least suspected there KW would have prescient abilities due to thier interest in Paul's visions as a child.

They were AIMING for such abilities rather than "suspecting" they would be a characteristic. Reports of Paul's visions would have piqued their interest, but they believed he was still a generation too soon. Even Mohiam essentially concluded he wasn't the KH after that first meeting on Caladan.

No, it does not prove conclusively that these other drugs cause prescience,  but I think you have to agree that it is a logical explanation for pre-spice foldspace capabilities.  Right or wrong, we'll never know until Zombie Herbert shows up.

Mmmm.... Hmmm. Imagine how pissed off a Frank ghola would be after getting back his memories! :P

[Mahdi]

"I'm kinda concerned by the use of "cause" here. The spice doesn't "cause" either Other Memory or prescience.

Actively surviving a lethal overdose of "spice liquor" is what opens access to Other Memory. "

A difference without distinction, when it comes to this arguement, IMHO.  

("Spice liquor" is what Paul calls what the BG use at the end of Dune, presumably a concentrated liquid derived from regular spice; "spice essence" seems to be Water of Life."

I've always thought of spice liquor as simply another term for spice essence.  Does it ever state clearly that it is a different concoction?

"Before Jessica, the BG did not know of the Water of Life used by the Fremen in creating their wild Reverend Mothers.)"

Again, I don't remember that ever being stated.

"The ability to counteract/neutralize poisons gained in that experience is doubtless what precludes for that individual any recourse to the other drugs/poisons available to and used by the BG. The experience also creates an incurable addiction to the spice."

Not true - this ability is not unconouis.  Re-adjusting the molecules to neutralize a poison or create a new substance is an act of will. Therefore, if a person wanted to, they could take a poison and let it do it's work without interference.  Nor is it this ability that creates an addiction to the spice.  Niether a normal addict taking it for it's geriatric properties or (to our knowledge) a guild navigator have these abilities to alter molecules inside thier own body, yet they are still addicted to melange.

"As for prescience, it seems that the spice amplifies native abilities conferred by genetics. Isn't that what happens to Paul on Arrakis in an environment pervaded by the spice? The Fremen are probably the "spiciest" group in the Imperium next to the Navigators, but they don't seem to exhibit any unusual level of prescience ... which you would expect them to do if it were simply the spice which confers prescience.

"

Actually, they do.  First, during the orgy they often have prescient dreams as is stated when Jessica converts the water of life.  There is the Fremen Tao, as shown how hen Jessica merely thinks of a cup of coffee a Fremen shows up somehow knowing she wants it.  They are also notorious for having excellent instincts, a subconcous prescience, due to all there exposure to the spice. I agree with you - it's probably not the spice causing prescience, I expect it's that everyone has prescience in a limted degree and the spice only makes us more able to access it, but it still seems like a difference without distinction.

"We're only familiar with the details of three "Abominations"; of the three, does Ghanima ever exhibit prescience? ("

To be honest, I can' remember any either way.

"ven though the BG were indeed targeting prescience in their KH, is it warranted to assume that the BT were as well? Or that they achieved such?

"

I guess that all depends on whether a KW is a KW i a KWW.  Personally, I think the incredible control over prescence is the defining featue of a KW, but I can understand that other may have differing opinions.  Everything I gleamed from Messiah suggests to me the Tlielaxu KW was prescient - otherwise, how much of a use is the Tlielaxu's knowledge of him a help in thier attack on Paul?  Nor do the Tlielaxu ever state "ut our KW wasn't prescient."  The BG never ask if he was prescient, implying that they'd just assume any KW was prescient.

"They were AIMING for such abilities rather than "suspecting" they would be a characteristic. Reports of Paul's visions would have piqued their interest, but they believed he was still a generation too soon. Even Mohiam essentially concluded he wasn't the KH after that first meeting on Caladan.

"

My use o the word suspect was in reply to Mr. Flibble - I completely agree that the BG's main aim was prescience in the KW - he is the one who was arguing they had no idea the KW would be prescient.

I hate this glitch that doesn't let me see what i've typed beyond like the 10th line.

EDIT:  Sandchigger, I don't think you've yet said whether or not you agree with the proposal that the guild utilized a different drug for prescience is a legitamate explanation for pre-spice space folding.  Where do you stand?

[MrFlibble]

You answered your own question.  Once again, "Once you try spice, nothing else will suffice."

Um, because they don't all want to die the horrible death of melange withdrawel?  As for the oracular eye, it would be closed.  Again, you can't go from Melange to another drug.  Every.  Single.  Guild.  Navigator.  Would.  Die.  I doubt the Guild, which is run by navigators, would be too keen on that idea.  And even, for the hell of it, they were all willing to die a horrible, horrible death in order to spite Paul and decide to get some other navigators going on the other drugs.  Where do they get them?  They haven't been used for thousands of years.  Do they even exist anymore?  How can they manufacture enough in such a short space of time to keep instersteller comunication going between one million worlds?

Even if the entire guild decided to kill off thier entire generation, there is no way they could find, manufacture, dadict, and train enough Guild navigators to get intersteller travel going again before the Empire collapsed.

Okay, it is probably true that the Guildsmen feared they would personally suffer from withdrawal, I agree with this point. However, what you say about the other drugs that supposedly should grant prescience to the new generation of Navigators is speculative unless there are quotations from the books support it (unfortunately, I can't remember any right now).

You keep arguing against this idea, but have not present an opposin thesis

I did not present any opposing thesis simply because I am not arguing with you. I simply wish to clarify matters, preferably with quotes from the books. It is true that your explanation is logical, yet it is partly based on speculation and assumptions that leave open the possibilities of other explanations. I hope that a more detailed explanation supported by evidence from the text(s) can be worked out eventually.

Although I'm trying to do my best to contribute to the discussion, I have to say that prescience had never been a topic of interest in the Dune books for me. I apologize if some of my questions gave the impression that I disagree with you :) With some free time on my hands, I'll try to examine the texts more closely and maybe find some clues to the question.

[Edit] Found some quotes of interest:

The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.

They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the prescient abilities found in Guild navigators.

Apparently, the BGs expected the level of prescience in their KH to be on par with or even lower than the Guild Navigators'.

the spice heightened a Steersman's prescience, gave him the power to guide a Guild heighliner across space at translight speeds. With spice awareness he found that line of the ship's future which avoided peril.

This indicates that the spice only amplified the (presumably) inborn prescient abilities of an individual.

They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators.

Now I can't be sure about this, but it could be interpreted in the way that the spice was, indeed, only one of the several possible amplifying drugs that could heighten the Navigators' prescient abilities.

[Mahdi]

I have been surprised by a lot of your positions in this thread Mr. Flibble - it's become fairly obvious over your time here on Fd2k that you know considerably more about the novels than I currently do - so seeing that you are not all that interested in the Prescience angle makes sense

I cannot clarify anything with quotes from the books, because I completely and openly agree with you:  My position is speculation.  There are no clear comments from the books to support my position.  If there were, this thread wouldn't be in exsitence.  Plus, I've been real busy of late and don't have me to go searching through the novels looking for anything to back up my position.  To be honest, even if I did have the time, I probably wouldn't bother.  I honestly don't care enough to put in the work.

Edit:  I posted this at the exact same time you edited your last message, that's why I didn't respond to some of the stuff you mentioned.

I agree, presceince is an innate ability that spice enances, as Sandchigger first pointed out.  I jsut disagree that that actually emans anythign int  context of this discussion.

That quote about the Guild and Arrakis does indeed seem to support the idea that Spice is one of multiple prescience enhancing drugs.

[MrFlibble]

There are no clear comments from the books to support my position.  If there were, this thread wouldn't be in exsitence.

There's still a possibility that there are some hints scattered throughout the texts, yet obviously the other drugs of the pre-spice era, and the pre-spice space faring in general are of little importance in the novels.

As for myself, I engaged in the discussion to point out that the BGs used other drugs to create Reverend Mothers prior to the discovery of the spice, as this subject was brought up.

I think there is no clear indication throughout the books that Other Memory is in any way related to prescience. I do not know if the lack of OM in Navigators could be considered solid evidence against it, as the nature of both phenomena is never explained fully anyway. However, the fact that Duncan in the last two books has all the memories from his previous lives, although it could not have been possible for him to have the cells from all of his past incarnations, might be a hint that memory of this kind is not cell-bound, or, at least, not all of it is cell-bound. On the other hand, there is little doubt that Duncan's ghola-memories are different from the OM altogether, and no observations concerning the former might be applicable to the latter (especially taking into account that OM is the memory of a person's ancestors; on the other hand, OM can be shared, allowing to have equal access to the memories of one's ancestors and to the memories of unrelated people). Even if we suppose that both OM and prescience belong to the "higher order dimensions", the very fact that there is no clear definition of what it is makes it difficult to pronounce any clear statements about the whole thing :)

[SandChigger]

Well, there's always the "DNA as a key to the Universal Akashic Records" theory, popular in some circles. (yawn)

Or maybe FH was getting a bit soft in the head towards the end and was about to introduce souls into the Duniverse? (yawn)

Duncan and his magic memories ... looks like FH took the answer with him.

EDIT:  Sandchigger, I don't think you've yet said whether or not you agree with the proposal that the guild utilized a different drug for prescience is a legitamate explanation for pre-spice space folding.  Where do you stand?

I think the Navigators and their abilities were a gradual development over time, so their having experimented with a series of different drugs before discovering the superior effects of the spice makes sense. At least more sense than a magic midget in a glass/steel container. "Ooh, lookey at waht I can do, children!" (Again, though, the wording there bothers me: the use of a different drug is an explanation for pre-spice <b>prescient navigation</b>, not for space folding itself.)

[MrFlibble]

I've never thought about it that way, but it seems that the Guild had not only specialized on the spice, but also on prescience as well. I wonder if they took any steps towards breeding potential navigators or just recruited gifted individuals from available populations. (It is mentioned that a navigator could breed before the mutation process went too far, but it is not specified whether the offspring inherited prescient abilities of if the Guild controlled the process in any way)

[Mahdi]

That's a good question Mr. Flibble.  I recall no mention of a Guild breeding or recruitment program, if you ignore the prequels.  It's implied in the original novel that Stage 1 Navigators act undercover as regular Guild agents (the Guild Agent who looses his contact to reveal blue-in-blue eyes and then admits he is a navigator and negotiates with Paul) but that's the only low level Navigator I believe we are ever exposed too.

I'm mostly inclined to think FH never had an explanation for any of this. 

[nampigai]

we're out of cognac Mahdi... :-/

[Anathema]

No, he's right there. The BG, while largely dictatorial in their methods, practiced a broad form of democracy amongst themselves. It was that discovery that tipped the scales and led to Dama killing Lucilla, if I remember correctly.

I suppose that they could be considered a democratic sub-society, but they were not pro-democracy since they obviously didn't care much for the concept to be applied to the rest of humanity, most of wich weren't even considered as "humans" by them.

Plus' date=' Abominations are an ancient problem for the BG.  Abominations have prescience.  I'd say it's likely that abominations also predate use of the spice essence.

Most tellingly, ignoring the prequels, there is the Tlielaxu Kwisatz Haderach, created by them before the public revelation of the spices role in prescience.  So they must have used something other than spice essence to cause his transformation.[/quote']

Abominations are women (one known exception) who go through the spice agony in the womb, they're Reverend Mothers with...mental issues. It's not mentioned anywhere that they need to be prescient. In fact, it's mentioned that Ghanima didn't have any (or at least, she didn't until the end of CoD whereas LetoII did).

The Tleilaxu...I suppose if there's only one society other than the Guild wich would know about the effects of spice on humans, it would be them.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't realize how old this thread was.

[arnoldo]

The following quote for the Dune Appendix suggest that foldspace was possible without a guild navigator.

The Fremen said of Muad'Dib that he was like Abu Zide whose frigate defied the Guild and rode one day 'there' and back. 'There' used in this way translates directly from the Fremen mythology as the land of the ruh-spirit, the alam al-mithal where all limitations are removed.

IIRC, in the Legends of Dune books the ancestors of the fremen arrive on Dune by hijacking a frigate.