What blade designs would you like to see in Dune 2010

[freeman]

One of the signature features of the Dune universe was the use of personal shields and old-fashioned blade weapons in a highly futuristic setting.

Kindjals seem to be a popular weapon in the series. The swords are never described in detail, but rapiers are mentioned.

What types of blade design do you think would be appropriate for the new Dune movie?

I've included some pictures of kindjals, japanese shortswords/knives, roman swords, and rapiers

I personally think the kindjals and the roman swords are more fitting for the Dune universe than fancy rapiers and asian swords but what do you guys think?

On a side note I also liked some of designs in the Dune miniseries. The Sardarukar knives and the one (can't find a picture) Gurney Halleck used looked pretty good. I still however haven't seen a crysknife that does the descriptions in the book justice though.

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[Dante]

The slow blade penetrates the shield. I would expect then that the swords would be quite short, given that a long blade requires more room to use and therefore gives the opponent more time to see it coming. Having said that, I think that in the Baron's arena it's mentioned that the two swords are of different lengths as well as colours... It's been a while since I read the book.

Also, given that a shield repels entry (obviously), it makes sense that most of the blows would be thrusts and stabs rather than slashes. For this reason one would expect blades to be straight or only very slightly curved. Or perhaps curved only on one side as in picture 12.

Edit: 21 is right out. Useful for causing a nasty entry wound perhaps, but those extra bits would make penetrating a shield that much more difficult.

[MrFlibble]

I think that in the Baron's arena it's mentioned that the two swords are of different lengths as well as colours...

Those were the colours of Feyd-Rautha's gloves, not of the blades themselves. The blade in the white-gloved hand was supposed to be poisoned, whereas the one in the black-gloved hand was "clean".

[Dante]

Mm, clearly past time I read the book again.

To clarify what I said above, thrusts and stabs make more sense than slashes because a smaller area of the sword comes into contact with the shield. When slashing, the force of the blow is distributed across the surface in contact with the shield, while a thrust would concentrate energy (do excuse my lamentable lack of proper physics terminology) at the tip. In other words, the same amount of energetic input would be more likely to penetrate the shield in a stabbing motion, because the force is concentrated in a smaller area.

[Edric O]

But is it really force ("energy") that makes a blade penetrate a shield? Fast-moving projectiles deliver more force on impact than slow-moving ones, yet we know that shields are designed precisely to stop those fast-moving projectiles. So if you hit a shield with too much force, it will bounce right off (but a shield CAN be overwhelmed with ridiculous amounts of force, as in the case of crushers).

So we know the following with regard to the resistance of shields to a penetrating force:

- Shields allow a weak force to pass through (slow projectiles, blades)

- A stronger force, like that delivered by a bullet, is stopped or deflected

- A force much stronger still, like a giant pile of space junk falling on your head, is NOT stopped by a shield

It is therefore likely that the relationship between shields and penetrating forces is non-linear. In other words, you can't assume that slower projectiles are always better, or (conversely) that a thrusting blade is always better than a slashing one.

[Dante]

It's a question of area as well though. The one thing we can be certain of is that a shield will repel fast-moving objects, which implies that a fast-moving slashing motion, even if dispersing the kinetic energy of the blow across all points in contact with the shield, will not penetrate said shield. Unless it does.

I'm going to have to start carrying the Encyclopaedia around with me.

[MrFlibble]

Also, given that a shield repels entry (obviously), it makes sense that most of the blows would be thrusts and stabs rather than slashes.

I'm no physics expert either, but this seems very reasonable to me somehow.

There are several descriptions of sword fights in the book (including the gladiator arena mentioned above), which could provide some more hints on this matter.

[freeman]

The slow blade penetrates the shield. I would expect then that the swords would be quite short, given that a long blade requires more room to use and therefore gives the opponent more time to see it coming.  

it makes sense that most of the blows would be thrusts and stabs rather than slashes. For this reason one would expect blades to be straight or only very slightly curved. Or perhaps curved only on one side as in picture 12.

I thought the exact same

although historically there are straight and slightly curved kindjals (both double-edged), I think in the Dune appendix, the kindjal is described as having a slightly curved blade around 20cm long

(this probably fits the description most closely)

I also thought that most of the weapons in Dune had to be shorter stabbing blades, but then again Duncan said something to the effect of "there is no art in killing with the tip" (or something like that) and if I recall correctly Paul used a rapier against Gurney

but yes, penetrating the shield with a knife or shortsword in a fight would be much easier than say penetrating it with a 7 foot spear

killing with the edge would also be really difficult against a shield

fast hacking and chopping blows would be deflected, so I suppose a slower slitting attack would be the only way to use the edge effectively, but then why not just a slower, more efficient thrust?

[freeman]

- Shields allow a weak force to pass through (slow projectiles, blades)

- A stronger force, like that delivered by a bullet, is stopped or deflected

- A force much stronger still, like a giant pile of space junk falling on your head, is NOT stopped by a shield

Just to clear things up, is it the force/energy of the object or simply its velocity?

because if it were the energy rather than just the velocity, the shield wouldn't have a speed setting it would have an energy setting

in that case less massive objects could pass through at greater maximum speeds than heavier objects, but in the books it seems that the shields only take speed into account

also I thought that, against a shield, the tip is more effective than the edge because a slow thrust is more effective than a slow chop

you can gently press the point into someone but that doesn't really work with the edge

[Mahdi]

Soldiers armed with spears are also mentioned. I think you are all forgetting to take into account that an attakers own momentum does not factor into a sheild reulpsion, as stated during Paul and Jamis' fight when Jamis impales himself on Pauls knife.  Which means that:

1)  When knife fighting, the shield does not really affect contact between the blades as both blades will have momentum, and therefore the shield will not block contact should they actually hit and deflect each other, which, despite what you may see in movies, is actually pretty rare. In the Dune books it was all about evading the weapon, not blocking it with your own.

2)  Longer weapons are still viable, and in fact preferable, if you are facing an attacker.  If someone is running towards you, their shield will only protect against oncoming weapons with greater momentum than the attacker itself (ie. bullets), not stationary weapons, like a pike.  The good old Greek Phalanx once again becomes viable ina  situation like that, at least for the very beggining of combat. 

3)  It's a fictional book without any hard science before it and shields can have whatever restrictions at any particular moment that Mr. Herbert felt was neccesary to advance the plot.

[chatfsh]

Soldiers armed with spears are also mentioned. I think you are all forgetting to take into account that an attakers own momentum does not factor into a sheild reulpsion, as stated during Paul and Jamis' fight when Jamis impales himself on Pauls knife. 

But when Paul and Jamis fought no shields were used.  Remember Jessica fretted, But he

[Dante]

The relevance is that Paul was trained to fight with a shield against shielded partners. And the passage goes,

Shields didn't count where the body's own movement could be used against it.

In other words, it is the momentum of an object outside the shield that is important, not that of the shielded object itself.

And while Mahdi's third point is very true, it does rather detract from the joy of debate. :P

[freeman]

I'd be really interested to see what a Dune army circa Paul Atreides time looked like

swordsman, spearmen, maybe even axemen[?], slow-projectile squads maybe?

wouldn't conventional shields still be useful for trapping the opponent's weapon?

[MrFlibble]

wouldn't conventional shields still be useful for trapping the opponent's weapon?

Most probably they were not used because carrying them would limit the combatants' mobility, whereas knife/sword fight as described in the books involved a lot of movement.

[Mahdi]

The only reference I remember in any of the Dune books to physical shields (and I only remember it because I read the page ten minutes ago) is Miles carrying a life blanket.  It incorporates the properties of a no-globe and a shield together in a physical, pliable material (think Harry Potters cloak made of kevlar).  But it's shielding capabilities are rather limited and if you get hit with a lasgun it will not explode in a random Holtzmfann effect explosion, but there will be a "rapidfire" which will kill the carrier of the life blanket and anybody in close proximity.  Miles only uses it for it's because Duncan does not have Atreides genes and is therefor visible to prescient hunters unless he is shielded by no-technology.

[theexecutirx]

As it was said, the slow pushed blade perforates the shield, so i thing the first image shows

an ideal knife.

I really love the Fremens' knives in the motion. :)

[The Riddler]

How about one of these little Puppies in battle, Hmm?

[TeamWolf]

This topic is very interesting indeed, I am looking for a nice Kindjal sword to give to the Kindjal Soldier for the Atreides for my FPS E:BFD mod.

Any ideas?