Is God Evil? the new thread

[Da_Ze_Ir]

With the gained experience of the past year, I can say that my view has changed somewhat.

One thing to note is that from my perspective, there IS a God that manipulates people and events and has virtually made the World. It is evident in the way my life has taken place so far. Mostly, He evolved me through discomfort and never seeing the end of it or having a satisfying existence. I find it evident in an intelligent pattern of many things of many kinds. Some people get the same treatment, others worse, others an apparently unremarkable existence, while a few live happily. What is the most annoying is that nobody has any real control. Everything is predefined, your developement charted. All the pain of going through decisions is just part of a plan and not a matter of YOUR free will. The world is full of bad things and suffering although there are good ones as well. Most of the time however, things imply painful evolution and happiness is often merely about escaping suffering.

I am a firm believer that "progress" CAN be made without suffering. Life is a neverending path, so the paradise that any sentient being is struggling for must be about finding the way and the situation in wich progress is made through happiness.

In this context, the maker and "governor" God is neutral, undeniably evil in some way. Evil because He is so smart and powerful to make all these predefined charts by which people live. This is obviously not the God you pray to at church. Then it occured to me: the world just isn't fair, just isn't good, just isn't perfect, just doesn't have the understanding, etc. We must hope for the better, we must discover Paradise and we believe in a God of good that overcomes evil and creates good. The initial confusion comes from mistaking/mixing the controller God and the Good God. The controller one is all-powerful, yet his existence we hope to erode by believing in Good, in the God you pray to at church. Just don't mix them up and everyting becomes clear.

The confusion came from the anguish of expecting a world made by a good God to be a correct one, which is not at all the case. And I believe that life can evolve on good alone, with just enough uncertainty to stimulate the imagination, but not the kind of uncertainty that drowns the individual in despair, since he cannot find a way out or understand why the context of his life is a bad existence. Instead, the joyful uncertainty of living among friends, satisfied, and learning new things with living, understanding and exploration.

One of the key parts of getting past these troubles was no longer expecting the world or some thing in particular to be perfect or certain. Just live, relaxed, not force the mind (to avoid self-limitation), keep on working for the discovery of good. Then things will light up.

WHY didn't He make a good world? It does not matter now: we must work for good and not expecting any to avoid limitation and disappointment, most of all to discover happiness - which is not always a selfish matter. And this is no more avoiding the truth of an imperfect Order than being upset about it. Are our actions still being controlled in this endeavour? It is our inner belief that they will one day lead God to presiding a good world. Living on means not having been defeated yet.

[Caid Ivik]

Why do you put this thing up again? We already went a little here, so why dig for dead bones? There were a lot of consequent questions you didn't want to answer, why do you think this time it won't end up else?

[Da_Ze_Ir]

Why do you put this thing up again? We already went a little here, so why dig for dead bones? There were a lot of consequent questions you didn't want to answer, why do you think this time it won't end up else?

I see that I tried to reply on every issue. Your last post there was one exception. I don't get what you meant with it. How can I adress something the way you want it or simply agree to your opinion?

As far as other things are concerned (relativity of God's point of view), you cannot deny that suffering is real, especially when it is consistent, you cannot escape or see beyond it, it is beyond your control and it has been forced upon you indiscriminately by the definition of your life, again imposed. Pleasure or superficial happiness can sometimes be illusions, but you cannot deny that the discomfort of pain and suffering are for real. As always, I hope you read before you post, although I'm sure you generally do.

[Caid Ivik]

What about asking what I did mean by particular opinion or question? If there is no question I see it so that you have nothing to say more or see the point too irrelevant. Well, in any case I hope my grammar has improved a little since then  ;)

About pain and suffering, I think we both address the abstract idea behind it: the very possibility that a human can feel it. But why should we ever speak of it? I guess the same body, which has the ability feel pain also causes the feeling of pleasure; without one there can't be the other. From a certain point of view yes, it could have been designed better, but perhaps it would be only a limited view, as both pain has its positive sides (security? motive?) and pleasure its negative (leisure? carelessness?) ones.

[Da_Ze_Ir]

About pain and suffering, I think we both address the abstract idea behind it: the very possibility that a human can feel it. But why should we ever speak of it? I guess the same body, which has the ability feel pain also causes the feeling of pleasure; without one there can't be the other. From a certain point of view yes, it could have been designed better, but perhaps it would be only a limited view, as both pain has its positive sides (security? motive?) and pleasure its negative (leisure? carelessness?) ones.

Suffering is about much more than pain. It includes stress and dissatisfaction or the inability to acknowledge or have a good life. Of course, I'd take mental dissatisfaction over a sharp pain any day, but if we think most people live under stress, apathy and don't get to visualise much joy or wonder in their lives, that is extremely cruel as well.

[Caid Ivik]

If happiness was easy to attain, would we consider it important? Would we even think about it? Would we thank God for it?

[Da_Ze_Ir]

If happiness was easy to attain, would we consider it important? Would we even think about it? Would we thank God for it?

I see YOU have some form of being content.

But what about the way of life of other people? IT is very important to feel good about.

Why should a feeling of comfort and joy be sparse? The pleasure of achievent would not be affected.

[Dante]

Oh but it would. You seem to acknowledge that yourself in your last post. People who are happy all the time do not appreciate how much happiness is worth to those who have little. Although you can exchange happiness with food, money, love, respect, the sentence still stands and still makes the same pithy statement. The Haves do not appreciate the position of the Have Nots. In general.

Also, be careful of how you phrase your argument. At the moment it comes across as simply "Life's been hard for me, god wants me to suffer, so god must be evil." You're not looking at several aspects of the situation.

1- Precedent. According to the bible, god has been absolutely foul to some people in order to test their faith in him. We're talking taking everything, home, food, love, family, everything. I forget the exact quote, but at least one of his targets says something like "If god is the source of all good, is it not selfish of us not to expect suffering?" Anyway, the point is that god is mean to people for a reason. Reasons that are not always clear to see.

2- Perception. I'm not familiar with your situation, but I imagine some things are still on your side. You can type, so you have a viable method of communication with others. You have access to a computer and the internet. It's still entirely possible that your a limbless plague victim on a hospital bed whose every dictated word bursts a new wave of facial boils, but somehow I doubt that. I don't know how bad your suffering is, but if god hates you then he hates other people a whole lot more.

Most of Africa for starters.

3- Accountability. What caused your suffering? Weather? Perhaps it was god. People? Did someone reject you for a job, a relationship? Did you lose a lot of money in the economic crisis? Those can be effected by god, but they are creations of man and man is just as capable of screwing things up. You might ask why god would allow man to cause suffering to himself, but if god forbade it then what kind of free will would we have?

4- Perfection. Perhaps the world isn't *meant* to be perfect. Perhaps it is meant as a prelude, a testing ground for mankind. We suffer here and if we survive then we move on to something better.

I would also take issue with your position that "Life is a neverending path, so the paradise that any sentient being is struggling for must be about finding the way and the situation in wich progress is made through happiness."

Firstly, life is certainly not a neverending path. It ends. And life is not paradise. Indeed, most religious scriptures state that paradise comes after life has ended.

Why do you think that so many religions all over the world have a concept of paradise? Because this world is imperfect, so people hope for better. Trying to make this world into paradise is just going to lead to disappointment.

And now that I've finished arguing from someone else's point of view, I'll argue from my own.

Just because you suffer does not mean that someone is out to get you. That's paranoia, and whether you believe that god hates you, or that the army is collecting your urine, or that there is a secret conspiracy of hairdressers to take over the world and they're making your life miserable, it's paranoid. Get over yourself. Life is perfectly capable of throwing a curveball without there being some malevolent entity behind it. Unless you believe that every strike of lightning is god's will, but you seem to have a circular argument here. "Bad things happen to me because god wills it. How do I know god exists? Because bad things happen to me." That's circular.

Bad things happen. They just do. Like good things. Even if your concepts of bad and good are different from your neighbour's. God does not need to be present for bad things to happen. There is no god. God does not exist. Bad things happen because you label some events as bad.

I'm getting tired of making pithy statements, so I'll just sum up:

There is no god.

Bad things happen. They just do.

If you can't get over them, you end up being unhappy all the time.

If you want to be happy, get over the bad things. I don't care how.

And since I'm not an advice columnist, I'll stop there.

Why the heck did I even reply to this, it's as banal as its predecessor...

[Da_Ze_Ir]

Oh but it would. You seem to acknowledge that yourself in your last post. People who are happy all the time do not appreciate how much happiness is worth to those who have little.

What is there to appreciate? They are satisfied and joyful, there's no problem with that. They, of course, accept that life as it is, too. No problem, eh?

Also, be careful of how you phrase your argument. At the moment it comes across as simply "Life's been hard for me, god wants me to suffer, so god must be evil." You're not looking at several aspects of the situation.

Ach, come on! I'm not some poor suffering someone and I'm not obsessing over something like that anyway. Although you could say that I have often had some level of psichological discontent, my argument here is general and not personal.

1- Precedent. According to the bible, god has been absolutely foul to some people in order to test their faith in him. We're talking taking everything, home, food, love, family, everything. I forget the exact quote, but at least one of his targets says something like "If god is the source of all good, is it not selfish of us not to expect suffering?" Anyway, the point is that god is mean to people for a reason. Reasons that are not always clear to see.

According to the Bible are many arguments, most of them used in the past to justify anything. Please keep it out. In the first place, the New Testament has been chipped up by men out of the original collection of writings. For instance, I saw a docummentary that mentioned Juda's gospel which had been eliminated from the New Testament makeup. It seemed to suggest that the idea of a neutral God and the future prevalence of a Good God was there already.

3- Accountability. What caused your suffering? Weather? Perhaps it was god. People? Did someone reject you for a job, a relationship? Did you lose a lot of money in the economic crisis? Those can be effected by god, but they are creations of man and man is just as capable of screwing things up. You might ask why god would allow man to cause suffering to himself, but if god forbade it then what kind of free will would we have?

Like the suffering to demand understanding and get it after you gain enough experience and value detachment, a relaxed mind!

4- Perfection. Perhaps the world isn't *meant* to be perfect. Perhaps it is meant as a prelude, a testing ground for mankind. We suffer here and if we survive then we move on to something better.

Of course the world isn't perfect, but that is what a child expects - especially when his head is being filled with nonsense.

I would also take issue with your position that "Life is a neverending path, so the paradise that any sentient being is struggling for must be about finding the way and the situation in wich progress is made through happiness."

Firstly, life is certainly not a neverending path. It ends. And life is not paradise. Indeed, most religious scriptures state that paradise comes after life has ended.

Even an atheist can understand that life is "eternal". Your children will move on and something of your genes, the upbringing, the culture, will move on. But it's more complex than that. You could argue the matter at the level of humanity or even the entire Planet.

Why do you think that so many religions all over the world have a concept of paradise? Because this world is imperfect, so people hope for better. Trying to make this world into paradise is just going to lead to disappointment.

Because "plebes" are too stupid to understand better. Because they work hard, desire little of thinking - and their work overwhelms their being anyway. But also because the church has been a way of manipulation throughout history.

The real paradise must be achieved in life. If you don't, you should think that it will never be or that future people might get it done. As for the impact of an afterlife paradise concept, it has often caused disarray.

Just because you suffer does not mean that someone is out to get you. That's paranoia, and whether you believe that god hates you, or that the army is collecting your urine, or that there is a secret conspiracy of hairdressers to take over the world and they're making your life miserable, it's paranoid. Get over yourself. Life is perfectly capable of throwing a curveball without there being some malevolent entity behind it. Unless you believe that every strike of lightning is god's will, but you seem to have a circular argument here. "Bad things happen to me because god wills it. How do I know god exists? Because bad things happen to me." That's circular.

First, stop telling me that I feel miserable about my own existence. We are having a GENERAL argument. With that out of the way, I can say that I especially have reason to believe God exists BECAUSE things have happened in an obviously logical pattern, not thoroughly bad although mostly so. And on a psichological level, no mutilations or diseases. And it's not like He brought bad things on everyone. Some are DESIGNED to live good lives, some bad, some anywhere on the good-bad line, each of them posessing a unique pattern/"colur"

Bad things happen. They just do.

If you can't get over them, you end up being unhappy all the time.

If you want to be happy, get over the bad things. I don't care how.

The secret is to relax and everything falls into place as the mind deals with it.

Why the heck did I even reply to this, it's as banal as its predecessor...

It's obvious that we have very different thinking, maybe that's why you didn't get my point!! For one, I think that theory and logic alone acted upon "philosophy" flawed, they would always be adrift.

As for the argument of being an atheist, the Bible or Christianity is no argument. Divinity is the same no matter how you chose to call it. Each religion is a WAY of adressing the issue, although each might claim it is the correct one.

In my case, my life has lead me to believe there IS a God, one of the strongest arguments being the way in which things fit together like a puzzle.

[Dante]

Think of it like this: the world fits together like a puzzle. How could it be any other way? Can you imagine a world where one piece was missing, or where one of the pieces had too many sides? Such a piece would not fit with the world, and therefore not be part of it. That's another circular argument. You can't say that god exists because everything fits together so logically, because there is no other way that it could fit.

Consider a body. A collection of organs, nerves, tissues etc. It works, each of the pieces has a logical purpose that relates to each of the others. The body might well think to itself, "I must have a creator, because everything in me fits so logically." However, consider what would happen if it was not logical. Consider what would happen if the body was missing an immune system, or a lymphatic system, or a circulatory system, or a nutrient absorbtion system, or a nervous system. Each of these is vital to the correct operation of the others. Without them, there is no body. And there is nobody to think "This works logically."

Is that clear? Does that make sense? You cannot prove god through the 'logically well fitting' of everything because if it did not fit, it would not exist. "Look at the Earth," you might say, "the magnetic core protects us from harmful solar radiation. It's so perfect, god must have done it." No, I say, rather consider that if the Earth did not have such a core, conditions here would be unfit for life. You would not be able to remark upon the imperfection of the system, because there would be no system. No life. No ecosystem. Just like the other eight planets in the solar system.

The problem with your argument is that it has no backup, no rationale, and no... purpose. What exactly are you trying to achieve here? I really can't see any point to it. Calling god 'evil' is just trying to attract attention through sensationalism. The simple rebuttal would be to say "from your point of view." And what is your point of view compared to the supposed creator of morality itself, hmm? It's like trying to fight Darwin with evolution. Doesn't work.

[SandChigger]

I used to be amazed at how long people could get by with their heads up their own bums, until I realized that the EVIL DEMIURGE of this world had so structured things that such people need not breathe while in that condition (position?).

Truly this is a VILE world and its Creator MUST be EVIL! >:(

::)

[Caid Ivik]

I see YOU have some form of being content.

But what about the way of life of other people? IT is very important to feel good about.

Why should a feeling of comfort and joy be sparse? The pleasure of achievent would not be affected.

I don't say happiness is sparse, just the way may be hard for someone. For it doesn't come to you by itself. Even if you get everything you ever wanted, you may not know how to enjoy it...in reality, I can feel happy for many reasons, but what I gain is the ability to feel happy for more reasons and more deeply. An ultimate goal of eudaimonean ethics would be to feel happy just because I can (live), without any other reason. It just gets better, so what is bad?

[Khan]

Truly this is a VILE world and its Creator MUST be EVIL! >:(

Or bored...

[SandChigger]

Or bored...

That works, too. ;D

[Da_Ze_Ir]

Think of it like this: the world fits together like a puzzle. How could it be any other way? Can you imagine a world where one piece was missing, or where one of the pieces had too many sides? Such a piece would not fit with the world, and therefore not be part of it. That's another circular argument. You can't say that god exists because everything fits together so logically, because there is no other way that it could fit.

Consider a body. A collection of organs, nerves, tissues etc. It works, each of the pieces has a logical purpose that relates to each of the others. The body might well think to itself, "I must have a creator, because everything in me fits so logically." However, consider what would happen if it was not logical. Consider what would happen if the body was missing an immune system, or a lymphatic system, or a circulatory system, or a nutrient absorbtion system, or a nervous system. Each of these is vital to the correct operation of the others. Without them, there is no body. And there is nobody to think "This works logically."

Is that clear? Does that make sense? You cannot prove god through the 'logically well fitting' of everything because if it did not fit, it would not exist. "Look at the Earth," you might say, "the magnetic core protects us from harmful solar radiation. It's so perfect, god must have done it." No, I say, rather consider that if the Earth did not have such a core, conditions here would be unfit for life. You would not be able to remark upon the imperfection of the system, because there would be no system. No life. No ecosystem. Just like the other eight planets in the solar system.

I'm not talking about the organisms which could have evolved from merging aminoacids or the way in which the solar system perfectly fits together to form life which couldn't have been here otherwise (so we could just be the forced scenario anyway you put it), I am taling about the way things fit together inside a human life if you know how to look.

There are two possibilities I have considered: one is that there is an all-powerful God controlling everything, the other is that the collective mind of the human race or that of the individual (both, actually) influence events. Something like "The Secret" but more refined.

The problem with your argument is that it has no backup, no rationale, and no... purpose. What exactly are you trying to achieve here? I really can't see any point to it. Calling god 'evil' is just trying to attract attention through sensationalism. The simple rebuttal would be to say "from your point of view." And what is your point of view compared to the supposed creator of morality itself, hmm? It's like trying to fight Darwin with evolution. Doesn't work.

I am just saying that, as a child, you expect the world to be perfect. And it isn't.

I used to be amazed at how long people could get by with their heads up their own bums, until I realized that the EVIL DEMIURGE of this world had so structured things that such people need not breathe while in that condition (position?).

Truly this is a VILE world and its Creator MUST be EVIL!

What you are basically saying is that I should start thinking positive or end up ruining myself for good. That's what I'm onto right now.

But you should realise that the implications are not funny at all and that people really are getting hurt all the time.

I don't say happiness is sparse, just the way may be hard for someone. For it doesn't come to you by itself. Even if you get everything you ever wanted, you may not know how to enjoy it...in reality, I can feel happy for many reasons, but what I gain is the ability to feel happy for more reasons and more deeply. An ultimate goal of eudaimonean ethics would be to feel happy just because I can (live), without any other reason. It just gets better, so what is bad?

Finally something that makes a lot of sense!

"An ultimate goal of eudaimonean ethics would be to feel happy just because I can (live), without any other reason." - This is actually a good description of the first idea that I had on any sort of such issue. That was about ten years ago!

Yes, it does get better with time and a lot of effort. But why couldn't it be OK while it gets better? It is not just a question of the "level" you are at.

On the other hand, you are highlighting that no matter what the situation, it still takes the person being capable of enjoying it. Then again, it is still a question of how that peson was formed, but overall it is important to note that it is all a neverending quest for understanding: no matter how good it gets, it can always be better and you might say that what is good at one "level" is too little for another. One of the most important things to learn, then, is how to get through this with joy.

[Caid Ivik]

I don't know in how far is the ability to enjoy a situation dependent on person's development. I guess there are differences in temperament as well: some may get excited quickly but superficially, while others slowly but deeply. And all these are changing. In one moment you see all the happiness when you feel pleasure; later you see it in ascetism and once you may find a balance or return to your previous values. And then you can find a value in firmness of your values, instead of their "effect" (ie happiness). In short, there are many ways to have a good life, and you are unable to hold a moment forever, unless you kill yourself. If we are set to live in time, what else may motivate us to live than the idea we can improve?

[Da_Ze_Ir]

I don't know in how far is the ability to enjoy a situation dependent on person's development.  and you are unable to hold a moment forever, unless you kill yourself. If we are set to live in time, what else may motivate us to live than the idea we can improve?

Yes, no matter what you achieve, the feeling of achievement only lasts for a few days, maybe. Then you feel as though you are back to square one! Although you may have managed to get something that raises the joy of your life.

Obviously, you should never think of something as an achievement or you will grow it into a disappointment. Rather, think of things as the course of life or better still, not think of them. Just be there. Life is in the present.

I guess there are differences in temperament as well: some may get excited quickly but superficially, while others slowly but deeply. And all these are changing. In one moment you see all the happiness when you feel pleasure; later you see it in ascetism and once you may find a balance or return to your previous values. And then you can find a value in firmness of your values, instead of their "effect" (ie happiness). In short, there are many ways to have a good life,

They all have advantages and disadvantages. They each have some measure of truth.

What I think you are trying to get at is having a way of thinking that is independent of things beyond our understanding or beyond our control, while at the same time cultivating some measure of positive thinking (intentionally or not, the optimism in your attitude) to encourage creativity and attract contentment.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I can enjoy sunny dawn without feeling it as an achievement. For it is easy to be happy because of own work, pride is always a strong sentiment. But to be happy because of things you can't affect, that is interesting. At least so it seems to me.

[Da_Ze_Ir]

Well, I can enjoy sunny dawn without feeling it as an achievement. For it is easy to be happy because of own work, pride is always a strong sentiment. But to be happy because of things you can't affect, that is interesting. At least so it seems to me.

But there is still a kind of satisfaction, isn't there?

In any case, the essence of a moment only exists in that moment, you cannot carry it with you. And that is exactly what you said before. You might even feel that you are a different person if you think about it.. You might feel things in a completely different way. For that, you need to relax between events, let yourself drift - and the relaxed mind is capable of coping with the situation in a way focus never could. Of course, one of the requirements is to have sufficient time between them, a few months perhaps, to get an effect like that.

[Caid Ivik]

Why should we limit happiness to only special situations or period of joy and its fading? When I speak about the ability to be happy from any situation, exciteful or resting, then it may be best understood in the way that my goal is a continuous state of happiness. For comparison, love remains even when your lover is absent, a belief may also be present even when you don't pray in the moment. True happiness seems to me to be of a similar nature, it should be a continuous sentiment or attitude, not just a temporary change of mood.

[spazelord]

I mostly agree with Da_Ze_Ir but the only thing missing is

[spazelord]

lol I talked about as we get closer to the year 2012 we will see a lot of earth changes and earthquakes and today I saw on NBC and ABC news they are preparing people for mass earthquakes. You know, they know exactly what's going on but it amazes me how they treat Americans and the world as if they are sheep. What is most amazing is that, people are mostly deep sleep from secret societies ways of mass mind control. They vaccinate people with small dosages of their cure which is the lies behind the masks of the new world order. The only reason they hold the truth from the public is that, they don't really care about population around the world. In fact there are 4 huge stone written rocks in Atlanta Georgia made by them (freemasons and the illuminati) saying that we need to balance out the population of the planet, in 8 different languages including in ancent Egyptian and Sumerian languages which are around 6,000 years old. They worship and fallow old traditions of Egyptians, as JFK said in his speech before the secrete society killed him. Here is what he said... 

JFK speech

Today no war has been declared and above all fears a struggle maybe, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion, our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the glob, the survival of our friends is in danger and yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired. If the press is awaiting a declaration of war, before it imposes the self discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting of finding a clear and present danger, than I can only say the danger has never been more clear and its presents has never been so immanent. It requires a change in out look, a change in tactics, a change in missions, by the government, by the people (((bush and the passing of the patriot act by the people))) by every business man or labor leader and by every news paper. For we are apposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relays on primarily on covet means, for expanding its fear of influence, on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, in gorillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted, vast human and material resources, in to the building of a tightly nit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, inelegancy, economic, scientific and political operations (((Ancient Egyptian system and slavery, Hitler fallowed and now they have brought it to America))). Its preparations are canceled not published, its mistakes are berried not headlined, its descendents are silenced not praised, no expenditure is questioned, no roomer is printed, no secrete is reviled. It conducts the cold war in short, with a war time discipline, no democracy whatever hope or wish to match

[nemafakei]

[offtopic] "the only thing missing is

[spazelord]

lol funny!  :D

On a serious note, here is a quote from one of the most powerful leaders in the world of its time. It remind us about the manipulations of our leader(s) today and those who fallow blindly with closed mind...

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar".

Here is how they have dumbed America and the world to take control, Fluoride, in your water and toothpaste, mercury in kid

[SandChigger]

"And yet it moves."