Proof / disproof

[Sneakgab]

''Having faith that God exists is not what gets you to heaven. You must love God - faith is only important because you must believe in someone's existence before you can love them.''

In that case, God should reveal himself through miracles and what not. It would be much easier to have faith and therefore to love him. Unless, he would rather not have some loving him? Any ''normal'' problems (eg: people ruining the environment because they think: Why not, God can just fix it) caused by his revealing of himself could be dealt with via his omnipotence. Without faith being something that he actually wants and only being a prerequisite to what he truly wants (assuming he sets his requirements for the entrance of heaven by what he wants of man), the amount of said faith is not important if it is removed as a prerequisite by his revealing.

''And they needed faith just like the rest of us - faith that what they saw was real and this entity claiming to be "God" was telling the truth.''

They needed a whole lot less faith though. I need some faith in the continuing functioning of laws and axioms everyday to function reasonably and I could easily extend the same amount of faith if God revealed himself to me. Seems to me that people fortunate enough to have God revealed to them need a LOT less faith than those who haven't and are much more easily able to love him and thus go to heaven.

That hardly seems fair now does it? However, this leads us to considering WHY God would choose to reveal himself to some and not others. Why not reveal himself to everybody? Maybe he wishes to test things other than love and faith such as generally living in accordance with the ways/ethics of the bible. Otherwise, the selectivity of these revealings would seem arbitrary.

Of course, it may be that he needs to test something other than faith and this test requires that his existence remains unconfirmed. Also, it may be possible that revealing himself would somehow reduce peoples ability to love him (through their own will). Though, as I mentioned before, I don't see any reason why this would be so. I can definitely see how it could be possible though, and thus I guess I might put my imagination to good use and consider this possibility further.

[Warskum]

What I see here is humans trying to figure out why God does things and how He should do it based on their inferior brians.

Problem is that the wisdom which is used on this forum is considereded stupitidy by God. Therefore trying to reason based on your logic of devine things is a rather pointless thing to do.

Look at what the Bible says after Gods ways:

Romans 11:

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!

      How unsearchable his judgments,

      and his paths beyond tracing out!

34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?

      Or who has been his counselor?"[j]

35"Who has ever given to God,

      that God should repay him?"[k]

36For from him and through him and to him are all things.

      To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Now a few things I would like to clarify.

God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn to him. The bible says that God is even manifested through the nature (its too complex and perfect to been the result of billions years of "luck"). Moreover, people do hear the word of God everywhere, no matter where (even in the tribes etc that are away from the world, The Word has reached there as well). Now what is required is to be open to God. When God knocks the door of your hart and you do not open...who's fault is it?

Open and He will manifest Himself to you. Look back at your life and see home many times He has knocked your door, every single time someone has tried to talk to you about God in a good way, it was God knocking your door.

People want to see God, but God is behind the door, open the door to see Him. God is not a thief to break your door open, you have to open it for HIm.

When I heard the Word of God I was open to it, yes I had my doubts etc, but I was willing to find out. Only after opening the door of my hart and allowing Jesus to enter God started to manifest Himself to me much better and still is, for which I thank God.

But the problem is that people don't want to even consider, people don't want to take a single step, yet want to get it all.

I posted qoutes earlier in this thread, yet no one payed attention to them, while they contain clear proof of Gods existence.

People want God to reveal to them the way they will like He should. That is not how things works, God is God and works the way He likes.

He has given proof to people that he exists, He has given man a great blessing which every single human being can experience. He has given man a sign, a miracle which is supernaturel which can and will happen to EVERY believer who repents, turns away from sin and asks for it with faith. And all of this can be found inside the qoutes I qouted here: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=20591.msg328742#msg328742

[Acriku]

What I see here is humans trying to figure out why God does things and how He should do it based on their inferior brians.

Problem is that the wisdom which is used on this forum is considereded stupitidy by God. Therefore trying to reason based on your logic of devine things is a rather pointless thing to do.

Quite the convenience is it, to say these arguments - no matter how "wise" or "logical" - are based on inferior brains and therefore pointless? Skip the whole argument and go right to "We're too stupid to know what God does or why."

Look at what the Bible says after Gods ways:

Now a few things I would like to clarify.

God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn to him. The bible says that God is even manifested through the nature (its too complex and perfect to been the result of billions years of "luck"). Moreover, people do hear the word of God everywhere, no matter where (even in the tribes etc that are away from the world, The Word has reached there as well).

This is actually not true. The Word of God has missed countless of lives and hearts, no matter how vast missionaries can go. Tribes of Native Americans have gone through thousands of generations before every knowing of Christ and his Word. Nor were they sufficient in science enough to know the complexities of life and nature (and somehow draw the conclusion of God). By the way, if it is unlikely that a universe could be made to this degree of complexity through uncountable draws of "luck," imagine how unlikely it would be to exist such a being able to create the same universe through sheer will?

But the problem is that people don't want to even consider, people don't want to take a single step, yet want to get it all.

I posted qoutes earlier in this thread, yet no one payed attention to them, while they contain clear proof of Gods existence.

I'm sorry. I did go through those quotes, but I did not find any proof of God. But if you're gullible enough to believe that it is true because it says it is true, I have some authentic series 1 Babe Ruth cards signed by himself to sell to you for a thousand a pop. Great price!

[emprworm]

I was reading some atheist blog earlier today and as always, the discussion in the comments section, once a a religious person interjected, turned into the same usual debate about whether or not there's god, etc.

One thing that I keep seeing come up again and again and again is this idea that atheists have faith TOO, just...faith that there isn't a god.  Seems simple enough, but it really frustrates me.  I wanted to see what other people thought before I interject my FULL opinion here...do people who don't believe in god have to defend themselves by somehow providing proof that god doesn't exist?

As I'm sure you've guessed from my non-capitalized 'god's, I'm not religious.

atheists don't have faith in the lack of a God, because that is a negative assumption.  you cannot have faith in a negative.  but they do have faith that the universe doesn't need a god, which is a positive. 

there are only three possibilities for the origin of  the universe, and all of them require positive faith.  additionally, to discount one as "irrational" also requires positive faith.

1.  The universe (all that is natural) began to exist, and was caused

2.  The universe (all that is natural) began to exist, and caused itself

3.  The universe (all that is natural) has always existed

there is no forth option.  To embrace option #1 requires supernaturalism.  atheists summarily dismiss option #1 as irrational while embracing the possibilities of options 2 and 3.  this requires positive faith, which they do have.

[Edric O]

That is correct, but note that option #1 does not, by itself, imply the existence of God. God isn't just the cause of the universe, it's an intelligent cause of the universe.

It is possible to believe that the universe had a cause, but this cause had no intelligence, will, or mind of its own. I'm surprised that atheists don't really consider this option.

On another note: Supernaturalism is required in order to believe that human beings have free will. Without supernaturalism, the universe would surely have to be deterministic.

[Caid Ivik]

"Intelligent cause" is either a vague or an anthropomorphic concept - surely not supernatural. Also, one can believe in God and not consider it to be a cause of the universe. Or one can see God as a natural concept, like in pantheistic or stoic models. On the other hand, when I predicate attributes of God to the nature (for example self-sufficiency in creation, preservation) then is my faith atheist or religious? Naturalist or supernaturalist? In short, some people see God profanely, some see nature as sacred; thus also atheism doesn't have to be an anti-religious attitude. Religious and naturalist view aren't in an opposition.

[Kokiri-Mentat]

On another note: Supernaturalism is required in order to believe that human beings have free will. Without supernaturalism, the universe would surely have to be deterministic.

Could you please elaborate on this point, Edric O?  I have spoken to one or two people that believe that the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, God creating creatures such as man is not mutually compatible with the idea of free will.  The logic being that since God is omniscient he knew exactly the destiny of man kind when he created us, so in reality we never had a choice in the first place.  I don't personally think this holds any water.  It is possible for one to know what action a person will take next, but this does not change the fact that the person in question still had to make the decision for them self.

[Sneakgab]

''On another note: Supernaturalism is required in order to believe that human beings have free will. Without supernaturalism, the universe would surely have to be deterministic.''

Do take note however, that super-naturalism does not necessitate a God.