Ten Commandments Weekend

[AeonGrey]

http://www.matiadorre.com/misc/sr483.pdf

This document originally came from here (and can be found there): http://www.access.gpo.gov/index.html

Rather than give my opinions immediately on it, I wanna see what everyone's thoughts are.  The text of the resolution is pretty short, shouldn't take more than a few minutes to read.

[Andrew]

Umm, firefox popped up saying to download a getdoc.cgi.

Can you host it somewheres else?

[AeonGrey]

Umm, firefox popped up saying to download a getdoc.cgi.

Can you host it somewheres else?

Alright, a new url to my web space is posted in my original post.  Enjoy.

[AeonGrey]

Eep, sorry.  My webspace was having problems a minute ago.  The file should DEFINITELY be there now.

[nemafakei]

Does the US have the May Bank Holiday that weekend? If so, find your own weekend, and leave the one good weekend in the calendar alone!

Irrespective of the timing, why the hell does the US government have to weigh in on this?

[AeonGrey]

Does the US have the May Bank Holiday that weekend? If so, find your own weekend, and leave the one good weekend in the calendar alone!

Well, we have Memorial Day which is typical at the end of May.  Sounds like it might be similar to what you're talking about.

Irrespective of the timing, why the hell does the US government have to weigh in on this?

This is actually why I posted about it.  I put a more lengthy rant on my blog, which is here. 

I don't really see it as against the US Constitution or anything, but I'm just getting tired of hearing the argument the Ten Commandments are the ONLY foundation of every moral ever.  I just wanted to see what other people thought.  It strikes me as slightly troubling and, but on the other hand nothing more than cheap political posturing so that Sam Brownback can kiss the religious asses of his constituents.

[Tatar Khan]

Well they needed another holiday for May, I guess and decided to create it as Ten Commandment day. Overall this is not going to really make anyone extremely angry as 3 large religions share the ten commandments. The other minority groups will most likely shrug it off an enjoy the day off.

[AeonGrey]

Well they needed another holiday for May, I guess and decided to create it as Ten Commandment day. Overall this is not going to really make anyone extremely angry as 3 large religions share the ten commandments. The other minority groups will most likely shrug it off an enjoy the day off.

Hey good point....maybe I should try to lobby for "Jesus Appreciation Week" during the week of my birthday.  Wouldn't mind not having to work then.

[Kokiri-Mentat]

ditto to that, Tatar.

Well, at least at least some politicians are doing at least something to please their constituents besides the ones who pay for their campaign funding(but it's not like this is anything to get exited about).  Let's see a bill get passed that's actually worth a damn.

Social security never got fixed when Bush/republicans took control even though they said they would.  I'm still kinda bummed about that.

did this bill receive a lot of media attention? I didn't really seem much, but haven't been looking.

[AeonGrey]

ditto to that, Tatar.

Well, at least at least some politicians are doing at least something to please their constituents besides the ones who pay for their campaign funding(but it's not like this is anything to get exited about).  Let's see a bill get passed that's actually worth a damn.

Social security never got fixed when Bush/republicans took control even though they said they would.  I'm still kinda bummed about that.

did this bill receive a lot of media attention? I didn't really seem much, but haven't been looking.

I don't think it has, honestly.  And it probably won't except for in the Conservative press.  I'm sure Fox news will mention it. 

As far as doing something to please their constituents...yes and no.  I mean yeah, it is ass-kissing in a way, but does it actually get anything important done?  I mean...the bill itself says that people have been celebrating this already anyway.  I realize it doesn't infringe on my rights or break the separation of church and state really...I'm just afraid the people who advance this "We're a Christian nation with laws based on the Ten Commandments" argument are going to see this as some sort of a...vindication or cite it as evidence in the future that we are indeed a "Christian nation" or whatever....

[Dragoon Knight]

I find the American tendency to irrevocably link Christianity to their politics... disturbing.  I don't think that any Prime Minister - or any MP, for that matter - would last long in this country if they were as vocal as some of their US counterparts on God.

Religion and politics (and just about anything else) should be kept separate in practice.  This holiday shouldn't exist for the reasons outlined in that document.  Even if it wasn't just political favour-gathering, the reasoning behind it has no more clout than me saying that we should enforce Sundays as being a "Holy Day" and all stop working.  Or perhaps we should all be required to pledge allegiance to God and country at work, like the US ritualise in some of their schools.

We live in a world where most developed countries seem to have a general grasp of the distinction between archaic texts and modern reasoning.  This kind of thing - a minority representation, perhaps - only serves to increase my doubts as to whether the US is in the best of hands.

[Kokiri-Mentat]

I find the American tendency to irrevocably link Christianity to their politics... disturbing. 

Religion and politics (and just about anything else) should be kept separate in practice.

We live in a world where most developed countries seem to have a general grasp of the distinction between archaic texts and modern reasoning.  This kind of thing - a minority representation, perhaps - only serves to increase my doubts as to whether the US is in the best of hands.

1) yes I agree, it is very disturbing. I'm tired of hearing from the religious right wing how I should be practicing my christianity.

2)agreed

3)well, in the US, christians=majority, not minority.  And, remember the 10 commandments are really more Judaic than Christian.  and the 10 commandments are really just common sense and very straightforeward, not some vague obscure passage from the lost book of Enoch or whatever.  (but i'm not justifying religious politics, just pointing out the demographics)  If i'm not mistaken most of the world regards the US as a christian nation.  but please correct me if i'm wrong.

[Dragoon Knight]

Oh yes, I understand Christianity is the majority.  I simply meant that I didn't think most of the USA would endorse this kind of activity. :)

[Edric O]

I don't really see it as against the US Constitution or anything, but I'm just getting tired of hearing the argument the Ten Commandments are the ONLY foundation of every moral ever.  I just wanted to see what other people thought.  It strikes me as slightly troubling and, but on the other hand nothing more than cheap political posturing so that Sam Brownback can kiss the religious asses of his constituents.

I agree. I would also like to point out that the Ten Commandments, if taken out of the context of the Bible, are extremely vague. Take, for example, "do not kill." Does that mean you shouldn't kill anyone, ever, thus outlawing killing in self-defence and war? Does it mean you shouldn't kill without cause? Does it mean you shouldn't kill innocent people (but killing guilty people is fine)? Does it mean you shouldn't kill animals? And so on and so forth.

If you look at the Ten Commandments alone and ignore the rest of the Bible, you could interpret then to mean almost anything you want. And that's probably why conservatives like to display them so much.

[nemafakei]

"I don't think that any Prime Minister - or any MP, for that matter - would last long in this country if they were as vocal as some of their US counterparts on God."

Not even Ian Paisley, who shouted "I refuse you as Christ's enemy and the Anti-Christ with all your false doctrine" at John Paul II?

Not even Tony "Messianic gaze into the middle distance, holier-than-thou Sunday dress" Blair?

[Kokiri-Mentat]

I agree. I would also like to point out that the Ten Commandments, if taken out of the context of the Bible, are extremely vague. Take, for example, "do not kill." Does that mean you shouldn't kill anyone, ever, thus outlawing killing in self-defence and war? Does it mean you shouldn't kill without cause? Does it mean you shouldn't kill innocent people (but killing guilty people is fine)? Does it mean you shouldn't kill animals? And so on and so forth.

If you look at the Ten Commandments alone and ignore the rest of the Bible, you could interpret then to mean almost anything you want. And that's probably why conservatives like to display them so much.

Isn't the hebrew word murder and not just kill? that certainly changes things a bit.  I might be wrong on that but regardless, I suppose I wasn't looking at it out of biblical context.  Yes that one can be vague in situations. So what about the other nine?  are those less clear you think?

[Dragoon Knight]

Not even Ian Paisley, who shouted "I refuse you as Christ's enemy and the Anti-Christ with all your false doctrine" at John Paul II?

Not even Tony "Messianic gaze into the middle distance, holier-than-thou Sunday dress" Blair?

Ian Paisley is a Reverend, among other things.  Northern Ireland has always been a bit nutty about the whole religion thing anyway.

And I don't think Tony Blair was ever vocal about religion in a massive way.  Could be mistaken, though.

[AeonGrey]

Check out this page.  I don't know what to think about the "ten commandments" after seeing this.  I actually noticed this when reading some Bible passages for a Western Civ class.  I dunno about the rest of you, but I see darn near 40 commandments there.  And how on earth are we supposed to argue that the one about not making idols has any link to morality or modern US law?  And where does this fabled list of "10" commandments exist in the Bible?  Who decided which ten were "the" ten.  I realize a lot of those in that Wikipedia link are rewordings of each other, but even then, it seems very ambiguous.  Seems like a good deal of Christians in the US have sort of a "what they told me in Sunday school" kind of idea about the commandments...ridiculous.

[nemafakei]

"And I don't think Tony Blair was ever vocal about religion in a massive way.  Could be mistaken, though."

Ish. I take your point that he's nowhere near the evangelism of the President and the majority of the parliamentarians of the US. On the other hand, British politics is significantly more religiously inclined, albeit in a mostly ritualistic way nowadays, than many European countries.

On the '10', there are in fact 15 iussive verbs in Deuteronomy which are either direct commands or "you shall"; and thus there are no more than 15. Largely speaking, the selection of '10' reflect semantic groupings: i.e. 3 of them are talking about ths Sabbath, and "coveting thy neighbour's wife" and "coveting thy neighbour's property" are essentially the same thing if you're into the whole wives-as-property business, which most church leaders throughout history have been. Except, apparently, for the Catholic priests, who, incidentally, aren't allowed to get married.

[Edric O]

Check out this page.  I don't know what to think about the "ten commandments" after seeing this.  I actually noticed this when reading some Bible passages for a Western Civ class.  I dunno about the rest of you, but I see darn near 40 commandments there.  And how on earth are we supposed to argue that the one about not making idols has any link to morality or modern US law?  And where does this fabled list of "10" commandments exist in the Bible?  Who decided which ten were "the" ten.  I realize a lot of those in that Wikipedia link are rewordings of each other, but even then, it seems very ambiguous.  Seems like a good deal of Christians in the US have sort of a "what they told me in Sunday school" kind of idea about the commandments...ridiculous.

Well, the wiki article seems to make it clear that the list of commandments given in the Bible includes more than 10 imperative statements, but all religions which accept those commandments have divided the longer list given in the Bible into 10 blocks or paragraphs - hence "The Ten Commandments."

And it's not just the idolatry commandment that seems out of place in the context of US law, but also, for example, the commandment to "honour your father and mother" (what counts as "honouring" and how could you possibly legislate that?), or the commandment against coveting (since coveting is a state of mind, not an action, it has nothing to do with law).

Isn't the hebrew word murder and not just kill? that certainly changes things a bit.  I might be wrong on that but regardless, I suppose I wasn't looking at it out of biblical context.  Yes that one can be vague in situations. So what about the other nine?  are those less clear you think?

Yes, it's "murder", not "kill", but that's not much more specific. What kind of killing counts as "murder"? You could interpret it in many different ways.

The others are likewise vague - again, you need the whole Bible as context in order to understand them properly. The commandment about idolatry has been interpreted as anything from outlawing the use of any images (including photos and movies) to merely saying that you should not worship false gods. The commandments about keeping the sabbath and honouring your parents are obviously vague, and the commandment against theft raises the issue of what counts as "theft."

[Acriku]

What a joke. This reveals the continued ignorance of the Congress (or the lobbies). As Edric alluded to, the Ten Commandments are not entirely respective of what the law declares - namely that of adultery, lying, having any other god before Him, and respecting the Sabbath. This holiday is a joke, and the PDF file bastardizes our founding fathers' points of views into making it seem like they would all favor such a holiday.

An absolute unfunny, ignorant joke.

[nemafakei]

Hey, what about extending the demand to include a Seafood Deprecation Day?

[Acriku]

Now, would that jack up or lower sushi prices for that day? Because if it lowers their prices, I'm all for a hating-seafood-day. Seafood Price-Depreciation Day is more like it.

[Edric O]

This holiday is a joke, and the PDF file bastardizes our founding fathers' points of views into making it seem like they would all favor such a holiday.

While we're on the subject of mixing politics with religion, I would like to take this opportunity to once again tell all my American friends that they should stop treating the "founding fathers" like some kind of mythical religious figures and they should consider the fact that the political opinions of people who lived two hundred years ago are probably irrelevant today.

[AeonGrey]

While we're on the subject of mixing politics with religion, I would like to take this opportunity to once again tell all my American friends that they should stop treating the "founding fathers" like some kind of mythical religious figures and they should consider the fact that the political opinions of people who lived two hundred years ago are probably irrelevant today.

Well said.  And just who counts as a "founding father"?  Someone who helped draft the constitution?  Someone who signed it?  One of the early presidents?  And why does every single thing they've ever been documented as saying have to be canon?  Isn't that why they chose to outline everything in a constitution?  So this kind of of misinterpretation of their words wouldn't really matter?