Leonard Orban or: How Edric learned to stop worrying and hate the EU.

[Dunenewt]

So, what have been the effects of Romania joining the EU.  The little news coverage it receives over here is that prices are high, and people aren't happy.

Anyone got any first hand knowledge?

[Edric O]

It doesn't get much news coverage inside Romania either. Everyone was talking about it right before January 1, and we had a big New Year's party, after which everything went back to business as usual. Except with higher prices. But price hikes don't really raise any eyebrows in Eastern Europe any more - not after the hyperinflation of the 90's. It's just accepted as a kind of natural fact of life that prices will jump every now and then (but your wage won't).

There is hardly any public discussion of the EU at all, for two reasons:

1. Europhiles tend to praise the EU in extremely vague and symbolic terms. They speak of "Romania rejoining the great family of European nations" (as if we actually left the EU at some point in the past), and generally consider European integration as a matter of national pride. They also often say that the EU will make our lives better, but never explain how or when.

2. Eurosceptics don't really exist. Or at least they get little to no media coverage.

To understand what produced this situation, you must understand that there is a great myth which has dominated Eastern European political thought since at least the mid-19th century: The Myth of the West. Essentially, all people here are taught to believe that Western Europe and North America are models of perfection and if we did a good job at copying them we would have a perfect society too. That is why there is no significant opposition to the EU: Any political idea or initiative adopted by Western Europe is considered good by definition.

Eastern Europe has been trying to emulate the West for at least 150 years (with an interruption during the stalinist period, but even then the Myth of the West was alive and well: the general idea was that we should create a society as perfect as the Western one, but by other means. In fact, I would say that one of the reasons for the collapse of stalinism was that stalinists were obsessed with out-competing the West.)

P.S. One particularly amusing aspect of the Myth of the West is that it denies the existence of any differences between Western countries. They are all perfect, and they are all the same. Most Romanians do not believe that there is any real difference between the societies of France, Britain and the United States, for example. That is why Eastern Europe supports Euro-American cooperation so much. Eastern Europeans believe that Americans and Western Europeans are the same.

Oh, and the Myth of the West is also a major driving force behind your immigration problem. Those immigrants believe you have a perfect society and that everyone who lives in the West is rich and happy. So if only they could get there, they would be rich and happy too.

[nemafakei]

"Eastern Europeans believe that Americans and Western Europeans are the same."

Yeah, these Easter Europeans, they're all the same like that...

[Dunenewt]

Are they related to the Easter Bunny?  I have a few bones to pick...

I heard Romanians described as Western Europeans living in Eastern Europe, how true is this? Perhaps linguistically true, but I don't know about anything else.

[Caid Ivik]

Hm, this mysterious ethnicum of "Eastern Europeans" always fascinated me, nearly as much as those of the "West" and "Barbarians". Not sure, how is it in the far Romania, here we had a clear distinction between ie Germany and France in past 150 years...and I mean VERY clear.

[Edric O]

Hm, this mysterious ethnicum of "Eastern Europeans" always fascinated me, nearly as much as those of the "West" and "Barbarians". Not sure, how is it in the far Romania, here we had a clear distinction between ie Germany and France in past 150 years...and I mean VERY clear.

Are you talking in terms of foreign policy? Obviously, some Western countries were our allies and some were our enemies over the past 150 years. For example, Romania is a traditional ally of France. Romanians are quite aware of the different foreign policies of the different Western countries, but they are not aware of differences between Western countries in terms of social or economic structure (for example, most of my fellow countrymen are surprised when I tell them that Scandinavian countries are a bastion of social democracy, or that the American economy is more market-oriented than the economies of Western Europe).

Granted, this may be a relatively new trend, and I am not saying that the belief that the West is homogenous has been around for 150 years. It may just be an effect of lack of information (or lack of interest) at the present time in Romania.

What has been around for at least 150 years is the belief that the West is a model of perfection that we should copy. And I have good reasons to believe that this belief exists in some form or other in all countries of Eastern Europe (defined as "European countries situated to the East of Germany").

I heard Romanians described as Western Europeans living in Eastern Europe, how true is this? Perhaps linguistically true, but I don't know about anything else.

That depends... if you're going to speak of "Western Europeans living in Eastern Europe", how do you define a "Western European"?

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps it could be more correct to use a period of 1948-1989, as the situation of 1857 was so, that most people in Slovakia (let's take it as a model of country 'east of Germany', tough no Germany was present yet) didn't even think about some idea of West, and as their intellectuals were under hungarian pressure, they tend to focus their hopes to Russia. Of course, demon of panslavism is something alien to a Romanian (or Pole, Hungarian, Croat...), but it was present for long time. Slovaks were more likely to trade with Russia too than go working to western lands. Only during the first war, elites educated in USA, France and Austria tried to merge the american model of economy with french model of centralization (as the austrian was ineffective and unwieldy, british demanded more 'civic' culture, and Germany, Spain or Italy weren't good examples for republican constitution in that time) and use it to organize newly formed Czechoslovakia. Then the America became a hit even for common folk. People became richer, also because of confiscation of hungarian feudal property, so they started to buy technically more advanced products - which weren't from Russia, lost in a civil war, but from USA, Britain, France...

After the second war and russian tyranny, then you are true, we simply looked westwards for hope, as on east was only Russia...

[TMA_1]

Could someone direct me to a watchdog website on the EU? You almost never hear any negativity towards the EU, and if you do hear negativity, you usually are trained to perceive it as nutty, or extreme. Sometimes this is true, I have heard huffing and puffing about the evils of the EU, but I never really hear about the hard issues of the problems concerning the EU. Could someone help me with this?

[Caid Ivik]

hardest issue is that nobody dares to define what is the Union for...or to follow it

[Egeides]

TMA: I don't really know about it, but the thing I got in mind was "the population has zero vote there??" I find very bizarre that it got its way and life just went on as if nothing happened (weren't they pro-democracy?...). Since any system changes over time, I wonder what is supposed to balance it and stop it from changing to whattever nonsense.

[nemafakei]

There are three basic approaches to criticism of the EU. One is from a nationalistic point of view - i.e. opposition to the EU on the grounds that it is a threat to national sovereignty. Another is from a leftish point of view - that it is a vehicle for neoliberal policies and helps to create massive EU multinationals which are problematic for a variety of reasons. Thirdly, there's sympathetic opposition - that the goals and approach of the EU is basically benign, but it's just a lumbering bureaucracy.

And in the UK at least, criticism abounds, though the issue is currently out of fashion.

[Grimbringer]

I've been watching this thread progress, I have some advise.

This all sounds like an americanized Europe, All this talk about Union and all that

First, I'd like to point out that it will begin much like this, The union benifits you all, it's here to protect you, serve you and make life better.

Then, once state suceed's from the union then the federal goverment will say no no, thats not right!, Its in your constitution.  Then there will be a great European Civil War, Ending lives in droves of Hundreds, and thousands.  Then after the conclusion, you will have no real independant rights, for you are the Union which cannot be broken. 

Or atleast thats what happened last time a union was formed.

[nemafakei]

Incidentally, what is the Leonard Orban reference for? He's a Romanian FO minister, but what's the relevance beyond that?

[Davidu]

I can tell you some things about the effect of EU in administration: right after 1 january no one knew what laws to apply or how to apply EU terms. My mother works at a branch of the Ministry of Economy, and told me that on the 3rd of january they started receiving calls from the country where the local administration asked for directions.

The sad part is that other parts of the society are in the same situation: either to apply the EU laws no matter what the consequances, or to ignore them and wait for the moment when they can be applied.

I have a friend that has an internet firm, and he went to the local administration and asked about the new laws about suspended cables. The idea is that all electric, telephone, and now internet cables are suspended between buidings or between telephone poles. The answer from the administration was: you shouldn't worry about that, we are not ganna touch them for the next 3 years.

Now, the effects on us are not that visible, maybe a certain enthusiasm that you can leave the country with only your ID card.

The elder people are either scheptical , or ignore what is happening. Being formed under a different regime they view this integration as giving up our independance. As well as free entry for drugs and terrorism. They are the only ones that worry about repercussions for our aid in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also, they see in the new EU legislation a reiteration of the old communist laws.

You are allowed to produce only a certain ammount of "something" ( spirits, etc) before you are being taxed. I am talking here about the population living in the cuntryside. The peasants that came to the markets and sell their products are now restrained to their counties. That puts some more intermediaries between them and the buyer.

FOr example peasants from Sibiu came several houndred kilometers to Bucharest to sell their dairy products. Now they are not allowed to sell their cheese outside Sibiu county. So, this kind of legislation will only make contraband higher as more and more people will simply ignore the laws and take their chances.

One funny aspect is about the spirits alambics. In every village there is at least one guy with copper containers that takes fruit from his neighbors and for a certain ammount of money makes the spirits. Now, EU is terrified of these "breweries". They want to impose a certain ammount of production as they are afraid those spirits produced with minimum of effort and money for the personal use of the villagers will rivale the spirits production of the West. The problem is that this kind of production goes to a certain layer in the society... a layer that will NEVER afford to buy Courvoisier, Cognac, Scotch, Wiskey, (REAL) Vodka, etc etc.

The problem we have with the EU is primarely that of no communication. They don't know how our society functions and we don't understand all the laws we have to enfource on our population, because it goes against our daily practices, or they are simplu not explained. People were terrified at some point that we wouldn't be able to drive our old cars anymore because they polute. At the time it was explained that no new cars that produce that ammount of polution were to be registered. The ones up and running can and will be used as normal cars. I am here reffering to our old Dacia model.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go.

[Dunenewt]

Incidentally, what is the Leonard Orban reference for? He's a Romanian FO minister, but what's the relevance beyond that?

He negotiated Romania's entry into the EU.