What is God?

[Tatar Khan]

I am still confused as to what I believe man. Just because I talk about this stuff doesnt mean I have serious doubts all the time. If you only knew how many times I thought of all the inconsistencies, even inconsistencies that people never talk about. Like, how could I believe in a faith whose people believed that the human heart was the seat of thinking? How could I believe when the evolutionary time table makes so much sense? How could I believe when there is no defining fact that directly or indirectly proves the existence of God?

I don't know which religion are you but sounds close to Catholicism. Matters such as heart being a seat of thinking and evolution are not in judiciary authority so to say of Catholic church. So their opinion of the church on those issues should not bother the believers. The only person who is infallible in the Catholic church is the Pope. The Holy Ghost strays him from error. And Pope can be wrong on all issues except the doctrines of the Church. So the views of the Church on science, politics and etc. could all be wrong.

SWsi you make a very interesting point.

As for proof of God that could be addressed this way:

Archaeologists and historians have a saying that goes smothering along the lines of:

"Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack of"

[Egeides]

Nice!

I have another version:

In the beginning there was my mind that didn't exist and was woundering why. Then it figured that it had thought it all wrong and actually existed, so it invented "time". Since it couldn't really figure what this "time" thing was, because it now wasn't anymore its self-reflexive infininite timelessness of One, well it thought it should get itself a pick and a shovel and get going. Then it got displeased by the other oNe with his pick and shovel so it got itself hammer and sickle and invented EdricO to annoy oNe. Then the mind was pretty damn proud of its little story, and it was all good so it went to take a nap. [and since by then it didn't know what was or not a dream or earth, it was more mixed up than usual and thought it had seen all this before... or maybe it's this time thingy...]

SWsi:

If nothing explodes, it is thus something. Therefore, we have an entity of something (1) and another of nothing (0). Here we go, Daoism. Yet this 10 actually is something, and there is a nothing. Therefore, we have an entity of something (10) and another of nothing (01). Here we go, Daoism. Yet this 1001 actually... 1001 0110 ... 10010110 ... 10010110 01101001 ... 1001011001101001 ... 1001011001101001 0110100110010110 ... 10010110011010010110100110010110 ... 10010110011010010110100110010110 01101001100101101001011001101001 ... 1001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001 ....................

[Egeides]

(double-post, sorry)

[Dude_Doc]

In the begining there was nothing. Limbo. Very slowly this limbo began to regard itself much as a pool of water might regard its own reflection.

But what motivated "nothing" into becoming something? To continue be nothing is much easier and simpler than being something, is it not?

[TMA_1]

wow...

no, I you overcomplicated the whole thing. What I meant about the the jews believing that the heart was really the thinking organ, was that the jews had some primitive beliefs. So how can you take truths from folks who didnt understand the world around them the way we do? What I meant by that statement is that sometiems I feel disconnected from my spiritual brothers of the past. it wasent anything more complicated than that...

sorry, I wasent trying to be rude, its just that you kinda lost the point I was making to acriku. I dont know, maybe you didnt and my point made no sense. that could be it too.

[SWsi]

When an egg turns into a bird is this magic or a chemical reaction?

The stuff of the universe turns to regard itself.

[Caid Ivik]

When an egg turns into a bird is this magic or a chemical reaction?

The stuff of the universe turns to regard itself.

It's a question of language. Chemistry could be a tool of magic (at least in crowleyan sense, or if you consider God a mage; but if we were exact and by 'magic' a ritual of zoroastrian religion, then no).

[Negative Reaction]

I suppose it depends on what God can be defined as.  Its often believed that God represents the 'good' in you, but that is commonly firm belief in many religion.  Many people have claimed to see God in visions i.e. the Prothet Mumhammed who claimed he saw Allah (God), Moses who had a vision where God asked him to lead the Israelites to the Promised Land.  Both of these examples are stories that could be tales, but we could try to define God.  Honestly, my intreptation of a God is that 'its a being who is worshipped and follo rewed as a belief'.  Most of the largest religions around the world see it that way.

Agree Or Disagree?

- Negative Reaction

[Caid Ivik]

I disagree, for me God is something absolutely undefinable. Or definable as Absolute Undefinable...

[Acriku]

I disagree, for me God is something absolutely undefinable. Or definable as Absolute Undefinable...

Undefinable, yet many of "his" attributes are given in the Bible...

[Tatar Khan]

Undefinable, yet many of "his" attributes are given in the Bible...

Bible could be seen as an attempt to understand God using the philosophical, political and scientific knowledge of the day. That doesn't mean that it is ultimate understanding of God.

Bible is full of metaphors through which the attempt to explain God is made. As human knowledge grows we begin to see God differently. However we need metaphors in order to comprehend God or atleast to try to. Lets say that our understanding is y=1/x function graphed in first quadrant. The x is the number of years humanity spent on earth and y is understanding of God with 0 being ultimate understanding.

Since the early humans did not have philosophy and other abstract concepts developed they understood God only through fancy tales and they made an image of God to comprehend more easily. As the human knowledge grew so did the understand of God. Now the abstract concepts are more understandable to humans so they can understand God better but that doesn't mean completely.

It is like trying to teach elementary school children about integrals and derivatives. They won't get it because their mathematical understanding is not developed enough.

[Caid Ivik]

Undefinable, yet many of "his" attributes are given in the Bible...

That's revelation, basic theologic category. You can't find anything, so it shows itself to you to prove its existence, like secret police if you don't believe it exists (and act so  ;)  ).

[SWsi]

Life is nothing more than a chemical reaction?

Magic means to involve the supernatural i.e. 

                                                                              1.  Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

2.  Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.

3.  Of or relating to a deity.

4.  Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.

5.  Of or relating to the miraculous.ve the supernatural

For every person that exists or has existed or will exist, there are an infinite number of people who will never be.

It is infinitely improbable that you will ever be born. Your Mother and Father had to meet and have sex at the right time for you to be conceived.

The same goes for their parents and grandparents. They had to meet and have sex at the right time. Go back 100,000,000 million generations and those 2 lizards had to meet at the right time. Go back further and those fish eggs had to be fertilized by the right male at the right time. Whats more they had to survive. All along the way in an unbroken line leading to you, from nothing. How remarkable is it that your identity turned up? 

It is surely more reasonable that you have always existed and that your consciousness is in fact, one of many (very many) splinters of god.   

[Tatar Khan]

Magic is what we consider to be supernatural at this time. Back in the day blacksmiths were sen as magicians able to transform rock into metal.

[Acriku]

Life is nothing more than a chemical reaction?

Magic means to involve the supernatural i.e. 

                                                                                    1.  Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

2.  Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.

3.  Of or relating to a deity.

4.  Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.

5.  Of or relating to the miraculous.ve the supernatural

Who defines what is natural? For something to happen, shouldn't it be then natural?

For every person that exists or has existed or will exist, there are an infinite number of people who will never be.

It is infinitely improbable that you will ever be born. Your Mother and Father had to meet and have sex at the right time for you to be conceived.

The same goes for their parents and grandparents. They had to meet and have sex at the right time. Go back 100,000,000 million generations and those 2 lizards had to meet at the right time. Go back further and those fish eggs had to be fertilized by the right male at the right time. Whats more they had to survive. All along the way in an unbroken line leading to you, from nothing. How remarkable is it that your identity turned up? 

It is surely more reasonable that you have always existed and that your consciousness is in fact, one of many (very many) splinters of god.   

That's just a trick of perspective. If I shoot a golf ball out onto a plain of grass, it's going to hit at least one blade of grass. Now, if we look at that single blade of grass we can marvel all we want to about how improbable it was to hit this blade of grass and not the other billion blades of grass. What odds! But then again, look back at the beginning and realize that it had to land somewhere. Just like our grandparents having a child had to be somebody, and so on and so on. If we didn't exist, and other children did, then they would marvel at the same "amazing" odds.

[Egeides]

That's revelation, basic theologic category. You can't find anything, so it shows itself to you to prove its existence, like secret police if you don't believe it exists (and act so  ;)  ).

Are you considering that the secret police or its nature is defined only by its unseen parts? Normally, I think that secret police is defined, just with greater fuzziness* established on circumstance. How do you define "underfinable" given that?

* Macro ideas' taint on micro. God being meta, quick answer would be "micro/macro inter-influence".

[Negative Reaction]

Magic is what we consider to be supernatural at this time. Back in the day blacksmiths were sen as magicians able to transform rock into metal.

I agree on that point and magic is something that is believed in, exactly the same goes for those who believe in God.  It's something that someone believes in.  Its a question of faith for some.  Personally, I actully believe in the supernatural and that's my belief.  Like we could define what is God, we could say what is the supernatural.  This is a rather intresting discussion :).

- Negative Reaction

[SWsi]

Who defines what is natural? For something to happen, shouldn't it be then natural?

That's just a trick of perspective. If I shoot a golf ball out onto a plain of grass, it's going to hit at least one blade of grass. Now, if we look at that single blade of grass we can marvel all we want to about how improbable it was to hit this blade of grass and not the other billion blades of grass. What odds! But then again, look back at the beginning and realize that it had to land somewhere. Just like our grandparents having a child had to be somebody, and so on and so on. If we didn't exist, and other children did, then they would marvel at the same "amazing" odds.

Who can say what is natural. A universe of space/time filled with energy (that nobody can define), that can spontaneously organize itself into sentient beings.

The existence of ANY SORT OF REALITY is natural? Why one reality over another? Or any reality at all?

The existence of me is natural? Me personally, am a natural consequence of reality?

The existence of a field of grass the size of a universe expanding at the speed of light?

92 "natural" elements?

To say that if i wasnt here to ask these questions somebody else would be is just a trick of perspective, a very easy way out. I think its called the Argument from Existence but i forget.

If Life is just a chemical reaction. From DNA to whatever your doing at the moment, then its indeed fortutitous the the very chemicals that comprise you, or anybody, exist.

A real clockwork orange.

[Caid Ivik]

Are you considering that the secret police or its nature is defined only by its unseen parts? Normally, I think that secret police is defined, just with greater fuzziness* established on circumstance. How do you define "underfinable" given that?

In relation between secret police and a citizen, who doesn't orientate himself in legal and practical basis of it. Much of its base and activity is (and often legally must) kept in secrecy from public view.

When we compare it to relation between human and God (I know it's wicked as there is a layer of objective reality over police and citizen; while God itself could be considered a sphere of objective reality itself), you have mystics, who know the 'laws' of 'secret' too, on the position of its agents. Mostly in iranian tradition (ie Ibn 'Arabi, who teaches, that activity of spiritually aware people is the very meaning of creation, or from another culture, de Chardin, who calls such one 'agents of God' too).

[Acriku]

Are you saying that there is only one possible lineage of human beings? Otherwise, it's very true then that the billion possible lineages that could have occurred would be saying the same thing that it is extremely lucky that their generation came about. Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate the life I have. I'm just saying, someone had to be born.

[Egeides]

Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate the life I have. I'm just saying, someone had to be born.

Someone "had to be born"? You mean by some natural law or...?

[Acriku]

I meant that when a baby is formed and is forming its consciousness, that conscience has to be somebody.

[Egeides]

Fine, if left as unexplained constatation. As demonstration, it'd look tautological.

It seems that I couldn't read your sentence literally. I guess you're getting your "conscience" from somewhere, not really "created" like if I read you literally. Strictly by materially assessed cause-effect, matter would not create non-matter.

So you have a "principle/law of matter-conscience link" of some kind?

[spazelord]

The only person that's off by far is The Doctor. What I mean is, it

[Dude_Doc]

The only person that's off by far is The Doctor.

Could you please point out where I "did wrong" instead of bashing out on me?