Some observations about the Scattering and the Honored Matres and such

[NHJ BV]

I've just finished reading the series for the third time now, and noticed some things I haven't noticed before, didn't pay much attention to before or things I see in a different light now that we know that Dune 7 and 8 are being written. They are mostly about Heretics and Chapterhouse. For one, how no one is really sure for how far Leto II saw into the future, and if it stopped at the Scattering or if he's still holding humanities' hands. And does him being asleep inside the sandworms' minds have anything to do with Sheeana's control over the worms? Did he know about the thinking machines still being out there somewhere?

Another thing I now noticed is that it is literally said in Chapterhouse that the (a?) war in the Scattering is being fought with biological weapons, and that that is why the Honored Matres were so interested in the Bene Gesserit powers (like controlling bodily functions such as the immune system). I guess that makes Omnius' biological warfare in The Battle of Corrin another hint at things to come in Dune 7 and 8.

Third, the two people Duncan sees in his visions are definately independent Facedancers, they almost say so literally. What their affiliation is in the Scattering remains unknown, however. They seemed to want to help Duncan et al. ("I found them a nice planet") before they changed plans and jumped into unknown space. That seems to imply they are enemies of Omnius, but at the same time they seem terribly disinterested in Galactical politics and just want to cherish their roses.

Then there's the realization that the Bene Gesserit were down to only the Chapterhouse planet and just a handful of other planets. They were really on the edge of extermination, much more that I realized previously.

And ofcourse futars. Aparently designed by enemies of the Honored Matres (maybe Erasmus?) to hunt them down. They won't usually hurt them without orders, but the HM are very frightened by them even locked up in cages (the futars, not the HM's ;)  ). Note that Duncan and his group have some futars with them in their no-ship.

[3ngel]

For one, how no one is really sure for how far Leto II saw into the future, and if it stopped at the Scattering or if he's still holding humanities' hands.

Leto II saw so much long, that himself planned to be exterminated by the Bene Gesserit for the sake of the humanity (remember "foreseeing is making").

And does him being asleep inside the sandworms' minds have anything to do with Sheeana's control over the worms?

Of course, Sheena was a result of Leto II genetic manipulation on the mankind. He had reached such a knowledge of the human DNA he could insert a timer both in the Universe (as a Spatio-Temporal event sequence) thanks to his foreseeing, and in the humanity as One, so he could direct it (this remember to me a kind of Hari Seldon control :)).

Did he know about the thinking machines still being out there somewhere?

Yes, he says of Ixians "They will do machines, but they will not be able to do Arafel" (GEOD)

Third, the two people Duncan sees in his visions are definately independent Facedancers, they almost say so literally. What their affiliation is in the Scattering remains unknown, however.

They are the results (or one of the results) of the scattering. You can see them as side effect.

They seemed to want to help Duncan et al. ("I found them a nice planet") before they changed plans and jumped into unknown space.

Absolutely not. They wanted to find a nice place for them, in order to "experiment" with them. You can think of this new Facedancers like a kind of trekkian "Borg". In this case they literally "assimilate" their victims, enslaving them inside their bodies (Remember what the female facedancer says).

[MrFlibble]

I don't know if my opinion is something you may be interested in, but I honestly do not believe the upcoming sequels to be canon. Therefore, any speculation intended to interconnect the said sequels with the original Frank herbert's books is unjustified to me.

EDIT: Here's my view on some of the evemnts described in CH:D. I do not believe there are any thinking machines out there anymore, or that some supercomputer tries to enslave humans. It is hinted in the CH:D that the enemies from whom the HM's flee into the Old Empire are the rouge Face Dancers, or more generally, the successors of the Scattered Tleilaxu.

I sincerely don't know if Daniel and Marty the Face Dancers are a metaphor or whether they're real. It is possible that some of the Scattered FD's have acquired previously unknown powers. After all, the Tleilaxu way of evolution is also existent, although Leto II denied that way. I think the "net" they wanted to capture Duncan and others with is the "ultimate pattern" that trapped the humans. However, only escaping the patterns would ensure the human survival in the Golden Path.

[3ngel]

I honestly do not believe the upcoming sequels to be canon. Therefore, any speculation intended to interconnect the said sequels with the original Frank herbert's books is unjustified to me.

I do not believe there are any thinking machines out there anymore, or that some supercomputer tries to enslave humans. It is hinted in the CH:D that the enemies from whom the HM's flee into the Old Empire are the rouge Face Dancers, or more generally, the successors of the Scattered Tleilaxu.

Totally agree

I think the "net" they wanted to capture Duncan and others with is the "ultimate pattern" that trapped the humans. However, only escaping the patterns would ensure the human survival in the Golden Path.

You know, you've made me think about it... In last analysis "the net" is the only totally obscure thing left in all the 6 books by FH, and this is unlikely FH. Everything he put in, sooner or later he would explain it.

So i think it was probably that FH would assign a very important (fundamental?) role to the "net", in the next book (dune 7), connected with the "last challenge" human race would have to face (kralizec?), and obviously connected to the new face dancer race.

Obviously, i don't think they'll take this way in 7 and 8 dunes ('cause it's too much complicated for their little brains ehehe), and unfortunately we'll have to read them :(

[MrFlibble]

A thought occured to me after I've read some "breathtaking" insights into the upcoming Dune 7. It is said there that Honored Matres are "evil Bene Gesserit counterparts", and I thought: they aren't acutally evil, but the survival pattern they follow is destructive both for them and for those around them. It made me wonder why the HMs, who are the successors of the Scattered BGs and also probably the Fish Speakers (their cult of Dur has FS origins I suppose), developed such a dangerous pattern, and why they were actually losing the war to the Scattered Tlielaxu. In short: Tleilaxu outsmarted the Bene Gessrit on the long run. What advantages helped the Tleilaxu to survive and prevail, and what flaws in the Bene Gesserit teachings made them eventually turn into Honored Matres?

It is true that the answers are partially revealed throughout CH:D, but still there's a lot to discuss, I think.

[NHJ BV]

Well, Chapterhouse states that the Honored Matres were formed under great pressure (indeed between Bene Gesserit and Fish Speakers). My guess is that they had no other choice than to become violent and destructive or they wouldn't have had survived at all.

Whether the great pressure came from the Scattered Facedancers or the Thinking Machines (Omnius/Erasmus, if you consider the prequels as canon) I don't know. Maybe they allied. The Tleilaxu scientist helping Omnius in the Jihad prequels could be foreshadowing of the freelance Facedancers of the scattering allying with Omnius. Again, only if you consider the prequels canon, but since Dune 7 and 8 are also written by BH and KJA it doesn't make sense not to when discussing these new books.

[MrFlibble]

Nah, I'm not discussing the new books. I've posted my thoughts about some issues in Frank Herbert's books here because the thread title fits well. And no, I don't consider the prequels or the sequels canon (see above), I just try to imagine what the original ideas could be.

[3ngel]

The reason, why BeneG became HonoredM is quite simple. They (HM) incurred in the same process Odrade did. That is, at some point, some of them (or one of them, that at this point of time were "BeneGesserit in the scattering"), were fascinated by the attraction of "free expressions of the emotions", like at one point Odrade felt. The difference between Odrade and HM was that HM had lost their root, their original learnings, they were fighting to survive the scattering so they didn't have the energy (and the time) to think other than survaillance. So they weren't be able to cope with the enormous potential of the emotions (that assumed the most representant in the sex), and in the end they were engulfed, trapped and doomed by what themselves began. On the opposite Odrade has strong roots (and we say, a little help by Leto II ;)), she senses that the lack of emotions is more a weak point than a strong point, but she can see the final point of the uncontrolled abandoning to these emotions. So she's able to do a median point, and take from MH and BG the right things.

[NeoDevilbane]

Since at this point it seems reasonably certain that Mentat_One's review is legitimate, we can then note that the HM were founded by St. Alia of the Knife.

[qsadzx]

i don't know if this has been already discussed before, but can anyone explain me if Leto has foreseen the creation of the Honored Matres and/or their return from the Scattering? I mean his Golden Path was to assure the survival of humankind, but in my opinion the Honored Matres would re-enslave it if victorious. I personally think that Leto didn't foresee the Honored Matres incident.

ps. sorry for my bad english

[3ngel]

Leto foresaw the HM incidents both from a "rational" and "non rational" point of view, because HM were the "came back-oscillation" of the scattering-pendulum (infact as he and Paul before him well known if you push the future in a direction, you have to face the collateral effects of that direction, that can even annihilate your pushed-direction).

So he made in a way that BG, in the end his preferred faction (see Duncan GEOD Consideration "Why you don't eliminate them?" and the Leto reply), would win HM (thanks to Odrade which carried a little dna modification made by himself) and assimilate their characteristic. In other way he used both the oscillation (scattering), and the back-oscillation (HM) at his advantage to make human race do a step forward (New BG = BG + HM + Odrade BG modification (use and control of emotions)).

[qsadzx]

3ngel: thanks for the reply; i think that you stated your point of view very well; indeed it is a good theory; however i don't agree with you over this matter, but sadly i lack the necessary language skills to explain my arguments (only if someone would understand romanian :) ).

in short, my opinion is that while Leto understood that the Scattering that will happen after his death will cause the spirit of the human civilization to reborn, he did not foresee that there will be also a Return from Scattering. From my point of view the Scattering was supposed to be the ultimate colonization of the Galaxy, a method of freeing the human civilization from the psichological cages of the concept of "The Empire", and Leto didn't think that somebody in the near future ( 1500 years after his death is a small period of time if compared to Leto's reign) would return to throw the humanity back inside those "cages".

again, sorry for my bad english

[3ngel]

@qsadzx

I understand what is your opinion, and i reply you with a simple fact :)

Well, Leto II was not only a foreseer, but he was indeed a GOD in the true sense of the word. In other words, you know (i think) that "foreseeing is creating" (see Dune II), so Leto in the same time he foresaw the future, or better in all the possible futures (because he WAS the universe, the ultimate texture of it, and so he WAS everything (including the future) see Dune III), he CREATED them, and he chose one future to realize (and all its implications).

So he not only foresaw the Scattering, the HM, their return, the Facedancers, and the New Facedancers Race, he Created them (all) :)

I hope this clarifies you :)

[tobiasthecommie]

Here's my view on some of the evemnts described in CH:D. I do not believe there are any thinking machines out there anymore, or that some supercomputer tries to enslave humans. It is hinted in the CH:D that the enemies from whom the HM's flee into the Old Empire are the rouge Face Dancers, or more generally, the successors of the Scattered Tleilaxu.

He saw the milky distances enter her eyes. Without asking permission, she tapped his front segment, demanding that he prepare the warm hammock of his flesh. He obeyed. She fitted herself to the gentle curve. By peering sharply downward, he could see her. Siona's eyes remained opened, but they no longer saw this place. She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder!

GEOD

She clenched her fists and pressed them against her temples while she glared at him. "But you know everything!"

"Siona!"

"Did I have to learn it that way?" she whispered.

He remained silent, forcing her to answer the question for herself. She had to be made to recognize that his primary consciousness worked in a Fremen way and that, like the terrible machines of that apocalyptic vision, the predator could follow any creature who left tracks.

"The Golden Path," she whispered. "I can feel it." Then, glaring at him. "It's so cruel!"

GEOD.

While the second quote may not be literal, i think the first one is.

I just stumpled over this after reading the two prequal series. That is, this time i was paying more attention to this stuff.

Personally, i find both of the prequal series lacking, i can read them, but they are in no way FH Dune. But i believe, an opinion here, that Frank Herbert did intend to have the thinking machines come back(in some form or another) in book 7. I would much prefer a FH Dune 7 than the two books they are releasing, since i'm sure he would do a better job, but, i'll still get it and read it. Hell, i would even prefer the draft they found to their book.

But i'm desperate, and i'll take what i can get.

And i didn't find the prequals THAT horrible.

Sincerely

Tobias

[3ngel]

The vision of Siona, was only a *possible* vision if Golden Path would not be realized.

Seeing that vision, Siona understand the danger of the humanity, and so her unconscious fremen duty versus her tribe (the humanity) awakens, and so she accepts (as Fremen) the duty to be Siona (in the same way Leto accepted to be the GEOD).

At this point thinking machines are definetively defeated, (see Leto : "I was seeing her traces in the sand but i cannot see her") (and Leto : "Don't fear Ixians, they'll do machines but they will not be able to do Arafel").

Thinking machines are definetively out of the games in the FH plot.

[tobiasthecommie]

The vision of Siona, was only a *possible* vision if Golden Path would not be realized.

Possibly, it could also be a definit future, something that will happen, and the only way to survive that future, is through the golden path.. Actually, i can't see how it can be a *possible* future. Whether Omnious is out there or not should already be desided long before, the golden path wouldn't influence the machines existing out there.

Seeing that vision, Siona understand the danger of the humanity, and so her unconscious fremen duty versus her tribe (the humanity) awakens, and so she accepts (as Fremen) the duty to be Siona (in the same way Leto accepted to be the GEOD).

Agreed.

At this point thinking machines are definetively defeated, (see Leto : "I was seeing her traces in the sand but i cannot see her")

That just meant she would survive the desert. Atleast in my book the quote is

"He saw her accept her own nakedness the way Moneo had accepted it, with fear and hate. It was of little matter. He probed the time ahead of them. Yes, she would survive his desert because her tracks were in the sand beside him . . . but he saw no sign of her flesh in those tracks. Just beyond her tracks, though, he saw a sudden opening where things had been concealed. Anteac's death-shout echoed through his prescient awareness . . . and the swarming of Fish Speakers attacking!"

(and Leto : "Don't fear Ixians, they'll do machines but they will not be able to do Arafel").

Agreed, Ixians won't be able to (for whatever reason) do anything that makes thinking machines and enslave humanity again. What i was going at was that it was already out there, not that the Ixians would make them.

Thinking machines are definetively out of the games in the FH plot.

I would have disagreed more before your post, but after reading it i see an assumption i have made.

When reading the passages i posted in my prior post, i assumed that they were talking about the machines from the Butlerain Jihad. But yes, it could quite possibly be that The Golden Path merely made sure the Ixians wouldn't do it(as well as a lot of other things, of course).

Personally, i'm not sure if FH meant the vision to be a vision of thinking machines from the Butlerain Jihad, or new ones from the Ixians, yes both are quite possible.

Bareing that in mind, i opt to believe it was always the ones from the Butlerain Jihad, mostly because it is clear that thinking machines will be in the two new books, and doing that, i can convince myself that it builds on FH.

That is similar to "Suspension of Disbelief", i know, but.. well, i opt to do that, atleast till i'm convinced that FH were talking about Ixians.

Sincerely

Tobias.