Carpe diem? Maybe that's a bad thing...

[Acriku]

I've been thinking about this... if people believe in Heaven (a perfect, happy realm they ascend to upon death), why do they not spend their entire lives on Earth working for God and living exactly as Jesus says - even if it is not practical in today's world?

Let me explain why I ask this question. If Heaven is a perfect and happy place people spend eternity in upon death (for those who are able to get in), why are people trying to work their lives to have a happy life that sacrifices a truly religious livelihood? How happy you are on Earth is meaningless and completely unnecessary if you end up spending an eternity in Heaven. Which is why I think that the question above is very meaningful, because if I was a religious person I would follow God's directions to the 't' and live as he says, even if it causes unhappiness for an infinitely less amount of time compared to eternal happiness in Heaven. Much like how monks spend their entire lives, staying away from sin of the real world and studying God as a livelihood.

What do you think? Should a believer "seize the day" or spend every day as God wants?

[Caid Ivik]

God created us in this world to be His vanguard here, not in Heavens. Heaven is is a state of soul, which cannot be described as a "place", where you can "go", "attain", or which you can somehow define as an eudaimonistic goal. This was an error made by Aquinus, which worked with very limited terms, not embracing the whole meaning. Sure, Augustine wrote that we should sacrifice some of the pleasures, which aren't sinful, to harden ourselves against temptations (which are, in ancient thinking, rightly described as unwise, short-termed goals, based on ignorance of long-term consequences), but that was no call for ascetism. It is only a part of philosophy, later perverted in various form of heresies. It is extremism, even monks do live in communities for each other, not for "distant God", some concept of perfection, which is incompatible with nature. Nature is created by the same God we are praying to...

Jesus teached love, dh to create binds to other people (altough we should be aware of its limits, as everyone will once die...), and trough (or beside) it to God. So, if "seizing the day" helps us to love God, we are doing exactly what God wants.

[Edric O]

Yes, certainly, all believers should live for God, according to God's wishes. But God never said we should isolate ourselves from the world. On the contrary, according to Jesus, the second most important commandment people should follow (after loving God) is to love each other as brothers and sisters. You can't do that if you're all alone and isolated. A life in the service of the (Christian) God must be a life in the service of Humanity. Now, obviously, there are many different ways to dedicate your life to God and helping your fellow man, and each believer can choose his own.

[Dude_Doc]

I think that how much people believe in God, how much they try and work for it, they inevitably get "sloppy". I believe this because we simply have not "heard from God", no signs, nothing.

I think it is similar to a job, where the boss is always away on meetings, and not there "overlooking" his workers. Some will still work hard, fulfilling "all the requirements", not talking /disturbingto other workers and so on, but the "real power" still lies with the boss (similar to my own job actually :) ).

Then, of course, religion today could always be used as a tradition. Religion is known to be a system controlling people, thus people could just use them while "being different" inside, for example all the cases where even bishops have molested children. Or why not go back in time to the crusades?

On the other hand, Heaven is a tricky case too. For Christians, it is maybe possible to believe in an eternal reward. But I am wondering, since we can not be eternal good here, why should we be rewarded an "eternal happiness"? Same with evil, why are we punished forever if we can not "be evil" forever? On the other hand, both could be combined... uh, which is basically like it is now... only... forever. :)

Tricky question...

[Davidu]

If you really believe that there is life after death then do as your religion says.

I mean if you think God would want you to do a certain thing... that is according to the teachings of Bible then do it. No "God wants pagans dead" crap.

Anyway... try to live your life to the maximum while not disturbing the others.

That's the hole point. Live your life to the full and if you can help someone do it, and expect no reward.

If you help the others with an open heart... and if you try to ban feelings like hate and envy and such, then you will surely have followed God's path.

What can I say? I am not a believer. I really do not believe in Heaven or Hell... or life after death... but I am ready to die tomorrow if I have to ( for something important) even if I know that that would be the bitter end.

Try to live a life without regrets... not by "forgetting" your mistakes... but by trying to make no mistakes...

What else can I say... "Carpe Diem" means not to let opportunities fly by.

I cannot see why you would be "evil" if you live your life to the full and try not to hurt anyone.

But if you feel that following God's will would only bring you sacrifices, and you are willing to live such a life... well... do it...

[TMA_1]

I totally see where you are coming from acriku, but it is a bit presumptuous to say you would follow the faith of christ to the t. It is the hardest road to follow the word perfectly, and most fail. Throughout the bible it says that the true core of the christian faith will always be a remnant, while the rest live in confusion. Remember the parable that jesus spoke of about the seeds. Some  would fall on rocky ground where the crows would eat them up. Some would fall into bad soil so that the plant would wither. Some would fall into ground where patches of weeds and brambles share dwelling, and the plants would choke. THe few though that landed in good soil would thrive and grow, bearing fruit for a new generation. Like all things in life, to follow christ is to follow a path less traveled. Many will not succeed but that is the beautiful nature of christs grace! Even those that wither away from the faith quickly, but had that initial faith will still find salvation, not because they are good people, or failures, but because they believed in the work of christ on the cross.

Can a plant grow without soil? How then can a christian grow and thrive without the grace of christ? The soil owes nothing to the plant, in fact the plant praises the soil for its nourishment, it owes everything in it's existance to the soil. Likewise we praise our creator not because of heaven, but because we are apart of the nature of things that he created. We praise him because of the bottomless grace he has bestowed on us, but because we inhabit bodies that carry with them vice ,greed,lust,doubts, and all other sins, we have a hard time coming to terms with the nature of the lord and things around us. Because we feel God is so distant, we tend to lose touch with the Lord.

Dont be so hard on those who lose their way, because dont we all take things for granted?

My sister had a seizure not too long ago. This has never happened and I woke upt o my mom screaming for us to help her. I ran up into my sister's room and saw her on the ground gurgling and incoherent. I thought for sure that she was dead, not ever seeing the aftershock of a seizure before. We called 911 and while I was beside her I held her hand and told her to squeeze as hard as she could. She kept drifting in and out and we kept shaking her awake. The ambulance came and by the end of the day she came home from the hospital, shaken but in okay enough health to come home.

All day I felt horrible and scared. I remember saying this to my dad that all this time that my sister was in the bedroom right next to mine, I have ignored her and even told her to leave me alone at times. What if something was serious that day? All that time I could have loved and cherished my sister, my whole family for that matter. But what did I do? I took my family for granted. It is the nature of things to take whatever is around you your whole life lightly. Is it right? No. Should it happen? No, but hopefully I learned my lesson. I cant sit by and not cherish and love every second of life, and all the things I love within it.

Most people dont get wakeup calls though, and those that do wake up for a day and fall back into the same old crap. It is not our job in life to attack and ridicule people for this error, but to wake people up to the beauty around us. I am a hypocrite for saying all of this because I take things for granted at times, but I feel it is important enough to say. It is important because I see what you mean acriku, and it makes me sad that it is the nature of things. But if this was a perfect world, we wouldnt need this topic. In the end we should always follow the scriptures to their exactness. If we would just stop taking things so lightly and remember that every moment is a moment that could be used, we would be better believers. There is a Stevie Wonder song where he talks about something similar. In the song he says if we could just be more careful in life, with our words and our deeds, things could be so much better. If we just had a bit more sensitivity and compassion it would make things so much better. oh well hope I didnt bother you guys with this, just had to say it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

oh it wasnt a bother at all TMA.. that was quite a beautiful post.

[Egeides]

To m, the ultimate and absolute (but not direct and RIGHT NOW) seizure of the day (and night, if not taken as darkness) is not only for/by material and empirical world. It might pass by an interface of course, but end up in reality (soul, the "person", "Being").

[Dude_Doc]

Cheese on a fruit cake, TMA!  8)

[Davidu]

I think about that too TMA...

I am an only child and I somtimes think about the time that will come when I will not have my parents around... And it's damn scary...

[Acriku]

GOod message, TMA. Good replies from everybody, too.

Is it wrong to conclude from people not taking religion seriously (in that they do not follow their book's instructions), that they subconsciously think it's not true?

Let me ask a different way: would it be wrong to say that since people cry for others who die, and since people try to live their lives to be the happiest possible while on Earth at the cost of not following their religion's code, they subconsciously do not believe in their religion?

Here's why I ask: even if people strongly believe in Heaven (the perfect, eternally happy place), they will still grieve for their lost loved ones. Despite their loved ones moving onto an infinitely better place, they still wish they were still on Earth, an infinitely worse place. So, there is a sense of "what we see is all there is" in everybody. To take it further, perhaps subconsciously our religion does not hold up and we only consciously believe in it.

[TMA_1]

Yeah it scares me too. It is the way things go though, and I just try to never think about it. As to my statement being fruity... well I guess you can say it is. Whats wrong with that though? It is apart of the human experiance.  Too much repression of feelings and emotions can be a bad thing, a very bad thing. You can especially tell someone represses their feelings when they have a screen name like "American Cyborg" ;) hehe

[TMA_1]

I think you overreach when thinking about followers of a faith system. Dont get me wrong, those same questions have been in my mind before.

There is a rift still between earth and Heaven. We are apart of heaven, yet we still dwell in earth. Not only that, we have emotions and desires as human animals. So you see I will still miss someone I love, even if I know they are in a better place I will miss their presence, who wouldnt?

J Hudson Taylor was a missionary that went into China in the late 19th century. He took his family with him on his missionary trips and while he was there he lost two family members from sickness. He talks about this exact dilemma. He said it was the most bittersweet experiance in his lifetime to bury his daughter. At one moment he grieved sorely for his daughter and at the same time he was elated at her entrance into paradise. Crying mixed with smiling and the sheer emotion tore him up inside.

We are a creature divided acriku. We are spirits, yet we dwell in an animal shell. Emotions work in synergy with rationality and spiritual enlightenment. Why wouldnt we be sad when somebody we loves dies? I think you have the wrong impression of christians. It isnt like we lose our human identity when we accept christ as our savior, we still have all the wonderful and horrible attributes that all people have on earth. Because of this we will still express our emotions like anybody else on this earth. We are the same even after we are made new creatures in christ.

So if somebody I loves passes away I will miss them horribly! That will make me cry, it will make me angry, hell it might even make me curse God. Does that mean God has left my side? Or the side of the loved one who passed away? Nope, God is still with us.

You are right ina certain way about our subconscious. We have an evil nature, and we are animals in flesh. Because of this we have basic instincts, lusts, and desires we have to constantly fight. That is why Paul said that "The Mind is the battlefield". We are constantly battling our base instincts and passions in order to please the lord. That is why we could never save our own souls! because we are so lost without a light to guide us. Just because the body rebels against the spirit, doesnt mean that somehow a faith in christ is untrue, in fact to me it should give a person even more drive to be sensitive and cautious to all the things we do and say, and how we spend our lives.

[Caid Ivik]

Somehow, I cannot agree with you, TMA ;) We are not divided (perhaps if you say a dunist term, divided God...) into parts, we are a perfectly harmonical convergence of physical, vital, animal and spiritual forces.

GOod message, TMA. Good replies from everybody, too.

Is it wrong to conclude from people not taking religion seriously (in that they do not follow their book's instructions), that they subconsciously think it's not true?

Let me ask a different way: would it be wrong to say that since people cry for others who die, and since people try to live their lives to be the happiest possible while on Earth at the cost of not following their religion's code, they subconsciously do not believe in their religion?

Here's why I ask: even if people strongly believe in Heaven (the perfect, eternally happy place), they will still grieve for their lost loved ones. Despite their loved ones moving onto an infinitely better place, they still wish they were still on Earth, an infinitely worse place. So, there is a sense of "what we see is all there is" in everybody. To take it further, perhaps subconsciously our religion does not hold up and we only consciously believe in it.

Religion is not a way of epistemology, it is a practice. It is as "true" as when you ie brush your teeth or write a reply. You do it intentionally, sure, but how can we measure logical value of an intention? When I want to thank God for something, I may question things like what consequences that "something" led to, or how was it my own (and not God's) work; but the simple fact I am giving thanks is simply actual. And that's religion. You may have an inner feeling that any of your act will miss the intention, many times in practical life it is so (counterfinality; Murphy was right). Surely, same I do expect of my religion, tough I retain faith. Saying that something was "subconscious" is not an excuse, it is foolish, when you don't try to detect and analyse it on your conscious level of mind. Leaving it uncharted is schizophrenic. When both powers, pesimist and optimist, are percepted by your ego, and are put in balance, you will value the reward mostly. And I think this is that "ear of a needle", trough which it leads to state of heaven.

In heaven, you are overwhelmed by love between you and God, there is no grievance for the earthly bounds. It is technically impossible, tough who knows. Catholic teachings give here a free ground. If you want to supress a grieve, you need only to understand what you can change, and what you can't. Then your grieve would seem senseless to you. But this is philosophic, not religious solution. Which would be to maintain the bound trough prayer for them.

[TMA_1]

I think you make it overelaborate caid, but then again that is how you see it so its all cool. :)

[Dude_Doc]

You can especially tell someone represses their feelings when they have a screen name like "American Cyborg" hehe

;D . Actually, I like the movie-name "American Psycho" so I changed it into "cyborg" (now you have an idea of how high-tech I am!).

Anyway, about the question of heaven. The Chinese belief "Taoism" (which I believe George Lucas took "ideas" into creating "the Force"), it is said that people are merged/becomes a part of Tao ("the Way") after life. Tao naturally exist everywhere, everything comes from Tao, it is everything and nothing. Maybe we will "be a part"/"one of many" after life? Remember that it is supernatural forces we're talking about here.

For example: when a friend or a family member die, we (on earth, in this universe) live through grieveness, sadness and hardship. We can never get that person back. Even if cloning were possible (and legal) - would it still be the same person (except the DNA)? But for the person who died, we may already be "there" (Heaven, so to say). Why wouldn't the heavens be able to manipulate time?

And you also mentioned that one would be alone in Heaven. Why is that? Think of it as a huge communications system with unlimited bandwidth (in which even you can come trough). We already know that we can never know every single person on this planet, but we still know that we can have uneasy relationships with them. "Heaven" simply erases those relationships.

[TMA_1]

who said someone would be alone in heaven? Did I miss something? (probably lol)

Have you read the Tao Te Ching before? That is cool that you know about Taoism. Almost everybody I have met who says they are really interested in it have no clue what Taoism is about, Americans are funny that way lol. The funniest thing is the Tao Te Ching is ultra short. Still though it is jam packed with many many things all in that short space. It is one of the most interesting philosophic systems I have ever read about.

Anyways back on subject. Many people who dont believe in the faith of christianity seem to think that the main aim of christians is heaven. The funny thing is heaven is an extremely complicated thing. Most people who dont know about the scriptures think that it is just one big spot where all people who are good go after they die. People dont realize that it is a complex of a few different places, and depending on covenants and time periods that a person lived, a person will go to the specific place alotted for them.

In my beliefs (This is by no means a belief of all christians, there are a wide range of beliefs about this so please dont argue because this is how I was taught) there are a few places in the afterlife made for different purposes. There is God's Abode, Abraham's Bossom, The New Jerusalem, and eventually the Earth will be remade perfect into a paradise for preflood and jewish believers. There are also different places of Hell. There is Torments, Outer Darkness, and the lake of fire.

It is much more complex than I have made it out to be. See heaven and hell is different varied on the different covenants throughout time. (If you have read The Lord of the Rings series you will see a striking similarity with Eldamar for the elves, and the unknown place for man outside of the circles of the earth in their cosmology. It is all depending on different covenants.)

Just wanted to show that it isnt as simple as "heaven for good guys, hell for the bad guys".

[Acriku]

Anyways back on subject. Many people who dont believe in the faith of christianity seem to think that the main aim of christians is heaven.

Funny... that seems to be the overall goal of Christianity. Christianity is a religion based on the teachings of Jesus. If you follow his teachings and truly believe that Jesus is your savior and Lord, you are deemed worthy and upon death you ascend into a greater realm - heaven. If you don't, you are deemed unworthy and upon death you descend into a worse realm - hell. After all, what else is the point of Christianity?

Listen to your fellow Christians. What do they talk about? "follow Jesus and you shall reign in the perfections of Heaven and eternally shadow God's blessing with your fellow believers!"

The funny thing is heaven is an extremely complicated thing. Most people who dont know about the scriptures think that it is just one big spot where all people who are good go after they die. People dont realize that it is a complex of a few different places, and depending on covenants and time periods that a person lived, a person will go to the specific place alotted for them.

In spirit of this thread, many so-called Christians don't even know about the scriptures. But aside from that, you mention the scriptures over and over - perhaps you have actual scriptures to support yourself, or should we presume you're correct without question? It has been my experience that many scriptures of the Bible are open to wide interpretations...

[Caid Ivik]

Point of christianity is to make people good to each other. Let everybody will love God and neighbors. Eschatology is a part of it, but not the "goal". Who says: "follow Jesus and you shall reign in the perfections of Heaven and eternally shadow God's blessing with your fellow believers!" ? Was it Ratzinger or some of those american "popular preachers"?

I think you make it overelaborate caid, but then again that is how you see it so its all cool. :)

Well...you think it is simple?  ;D

[GUNWOUNDS]

I agree with you TMA that we are a creature divided. Its absolutely normal for us to miss someone we love even tho we know they are in a better place.

[GUNWOUNDS]

In spirit of this thread, many so-called Christians don't even know about the scriptures. But aside from that, you mention the scriptures over and over - perhaps you have actual scriptures to support yourself, or should we presume you're correct without question? It has been my experience that many scriptures of the Bible are open to wide interpretations...

Yes its true that many christians are ignorant but of course there is a reason.... there are diff levels of being a christian.

[Acriku]

I can only reply to one part before I go to work...

I agree with you TMA that we are a creature divided. Its absolutely normal for us to miss someone we love even tho we know they are in a better place.  Think about it like this...... If your mother goes away to another country for 5 years but its a paradise resort.... you owuld miss her even tho you know she is in a better place... and she isnt even dead.  We arent going to be 100% perfect until we die and shed this mortal shell.  Until then it will always be a battle.  And yes i also agree that holding in emotions can cause severe mental/physiological problems.

So, you're both saying that one part of us is happy for them that they are in Heaven and another part misses them? What I was referring to was not just simply "missing them" I'm talking about the stages after the death of a loved one where one is angry, confused, and incredibly sad. These are not emotions you would see if someone COMPLETELY believed that death was not the end and in fact was better than living on Earth, and that when their loved one died they became closer to God and in turn closer to us. Do you not agree? You both separate this "animal side" from our spiritual side, when I'm keeping the two together. It's never as simple as black and white...

Also i agree that the main "goal" isnt to get into heaven.  I absolutely HATE it when i hear people trying to "bribe" people into becoming christians by telling them stories of paradise and mansions and riches and blah blah.  Its sickening.  The main goal of a christian is to dwell in God's presence.  Whether that be in Heaven or on a Special new Earth or whatever.... the ENVIRONMENT is not the goal...  an eternal relationship with the LANDLORD is the goal.  I cannot stant it when people just think about heaven as some playground where they will run around and just forget about God and play golf and be in paradise like its some huge Keg party.  Its none of that.

The point is that you are going to be in God's presence.... and if worshipping him on this earth makes you sick/bored/uninterested.... then chances are you probably arent gonna want to go to heaven either.

The whole point of heaven is to be closer to God, because Christians believe that is perfect happiness. WHATEVER the environment this perfect and eternal happiness is achieved, it is indeed the main goal of a Christian to achieve eternal and perfect happiness. Be it heaven, Abraham's bosom, or a "special new Earth". It doesn't matter. So, yes, it is a main aim and goal of a Christian to get into heaven (which REPRESENTS eternal happiness and closeness with the Lord).

[GUNWOUNDS]

I can only reply to one part before I go to work...

So, you're both saying that one part of us is happy for them that they are in Heaven and another part misses them? What I was referring to was not just simply "missing them" I'm talking about the stages after the death of a loved one where one is angry, confused, and incredibly sad. These are not emotions you would see if someone COMPLETELY believed that death was not the end and in fact was better than living on Earth, and that when their loved one died they became closer to God and in turn closer to us. Do you not agree? You both separate this "animal side" from our spiritual side, when I'm keeping the two together. It's never as simple as black and white...

well.. it has to do with a bit of selfishness.... i mean we are angry, confused, and frustrated because we know that we wont see them anymore for the duration of our mortal lives.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I Be it heaven, Abraham's bosom, or a "special new Earth". It doesn't matter. So, yes, it is a main aim and goal of a Christian to get into heaven (which REPRESENTS eternal happiness and closeness with the Lord).

Well you are saying it in a roundabout way.... the fact that you have to put the disclaimer in parentheses shows this.

[TMA_1]

some good info gunwounds! :)

Acriku you are attacking this from a perspective of one who is skeptical. Because of this some statements made show that it would be harder for you to understand. "Its never simple as black and white" TO christians who have an objective goal in life in many times it is that simple, and at the same time it is that complex. We have two sides to us. In my faith when Adam and Eve sinned their bodies were currupted. In many ways the act of Eve would be praised by people now days because she saught for wisdom from a human means "And her eyes were opened". This is the plan of Satan though, but in your eyes you would see it differently from me. Instead of trying to attack it, try putting yourself in the shoes of one who believes.

When I study about religions throughout the world (Specifically middle eastern religions and some religions of the East) I try to put myself in the same shoes as those who practice the faith. If I follow the logic of the other person I gain much more insight into why they believe what they believe. Not only does this strengthen the faith of my beliefs, but it helps me to see the cultures of different faiths in the world.

Its like seeing the commentary from athiests of bibles on the internet. THey make statements that are so ignorant. THey will attack a specific practice that culturally was acceptable over 2000 years ago because they look at it from a modern frame of reference. Any good historian will try hard not to judge the past from their own cultural perspective. This taints knowledge and on top of that it creates misconceptions about what the bible says. For example I saw one of these commentaries attack some symbology in Revelation as being rediculous and that somehow that is exactly how it will happen. Like the Whore of Babylon for example, one one of these commentaries they made it out to be a real woman! Honestly many agnostic and athiest people who study other religions try to be objective, but when it comes to judeo-christian beliefs they seem to have a different more antagonistic bent. This is obviously becvause judeo-christian beliefs are strongly intermingled with parts of western culture, specifically parts of western culture that some of these athiests and agnostics dispise.

Dont fall into a trap of intellectual dishonesty acriku, you wont learn anything, in fact the only things you will learn will come from your own opinions, and not the opinions of others. If you learn from your own opinions in history, you will get a twisted form of history.