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Axis of Evil Just Got Some 'Commies

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Edric O

Edric O

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[bush] Yeah... Russians... commies... Hey, wait a minute, I just met with President Putin in Brastilava... I mean Bralitslava... I mean the capital of Slovenia, and he sounded like such a cool Texan capitalist, what with his flat taxes and stomping on opposition to keep the nation safe from terrorists! I guess he must have been faking it all along. Damn commies, giving nucular supplies to Iran! [/bush]

VigilVirus

VigilVirus

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Bush should look up the Non-Proliferation treaty on the internet. There's a clause that mentions that a development of a nuclear program for energy in a non-nuclear state is illegal to be prohibited by other countries.

Edric O

Edric O

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Don't you mean "more Commies", I'm pretty sure they already have N Korea. ;)

North Korea officially abandoned Marxism in the 1970's, actually. They removed all mentions of Marxism or communism from their constitution. Of course, they were never communist in the first place - but it's surprising that they actually admitted to not being communist (and even more surprising that western media tends to ignore this fact).

The official ideology of North Korea is called Juche, by the way.

Caid Ivik

Caid Ivik

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When did that happen? And what were the causes/consequences?

Somewhen in 50s prime minister Mosadek gained support of masses through his anti-british politics. Problem was that british capital controlled their oil exports through a joint company, and so he nationalized it. He was even able to exile the shah for a moment, but internal chaos in their communist party, as well as Mosadek's political unwieldness stopped the process, and shah was soon able to restore his power.

Khan

Khan

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North Korea officially abandoned Marxism in the 1970's, actually. They removed all mentions of Marxism or communism from their constitution. Of course, they were never communist in the first place - but it's surprising that they actually admitted to not being communist (and even more surprising that western media tends to ignore this fact).

The official ideology of North Korea is called Juche, by the way.

Well I stand corrected, but don't blame me, blame my media. ;)

Somewhen in 50s prime minister Mosadek gained support of masses through his anti-british politics. Problem was that british capital controlled their oil exports through a joint company, and so he nationalized it. He was even able to exile the shah for a moment, but internal chaos in their communist party, as well as Mosadek's political unwieldness stopped the process, and shah was soon able to restore his power.

Hmm, interesting, I gave it a little look on wikipedia, very interesting.

Khan

Khan

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Yeah I always thought they were Communist. :-

Well from what edrico said, I think they started off communist, or at least posing as communist, hence their involvement in the cold war.

Dude_Doc

Dude_Doc

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Well from what edrico said, I think they started off communist, or at least posing as communist, hence their involvement in the cold war.

They got support from the Soviet Union, which at that time had completely installed it's stalinist government. North Korea liked the type of government the Soviets had, so they implemented it themselves. In the Soviet-China split, North Korea continued to pursue the Soviet style of government, and it eventually ended up being Juche, Kim Il-Sung's own "self-reliable-country-that-knows-what-it-is-doing" thing.

Today, you simply call it a dictatorship :D .

Edric O

Edric O

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Stalin was an amateur compared to Kim Il-Sung... and, unlike Kim, both Stalin and Mao were sane (power-hungry and quite paranoid, but overall sane).

Well from what edrico said, I think they started off communist, or at least posing as communist, hence their involvement in the cold war.

They started off stalinist (which involves posing as communists) because North Korea was created as a Soviet puppet state. But they eventually went far beyond stalinism, gave up pretending to be communists, and took up the ideology of Juche which involves absolute isolationism, aggressive militarism and nationalism, etc.

It's difficult to know much about North Korea, because they are the most isolationist country in the world. Very few people are ever allowed in or out, and the borders are extremely well guarded.

  • 3 weeks later...
Anathema

Anathema

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NK's ruling ideology is the combination of several key tenets of marxism (such as autarky, collective industry etc) with an even more extreme form of personal deification then present is in China or communist Russia. I view it more as a case of marxism adapting itself for local cultural factors rather then an independent ideology. You can probably see why Kim Il Sung would want to create the idea of a fully Korean ideology rather then one based on the teachings of (mainly) 2 men from Germany and Russia, especially since relationships with both countries were sub optimal at that time.

Edric O

Edric O

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NK's ruling ideology is the combination of several key tenets of marxism (such as autarky, collective industry etc)...

Since when is autarky a tenet of marxism? As for "collective industry" (I assume you mean state industry, since North Korea's industry is owned by the state, not by the workers), that feature is not unique to marxism.

...with an even more extreme form of personal deification then present is in China or communist Russia.

Of course. But that is a similarity between Juche and Stalinism, not between Juche and Marxism. Marxism is very much opposed to the glorification of specific individuals, since one of the key tenets of Marxism is that history is shaped by the actions of social forces and large masses of people, not by heroic individuals ("heroes" are the products of historical circumstances; they are simply the right people in the right place at the right time).

I view it more as a case of marxism adapting itself for local cultural factors rather then an independent ideology.

Juche is a form of Marxism only if you also consider Christianity to be a form of Judaism... There is a point at which a new branch of an ideology/philosophy/religion/etc becomes so different from the original that it turns into a separate ideology/philosophy/religion/etc in its own right. Juche crossed that point a long time ago (in fact, Juche was originally a branch of Stalinism, which was itself only a perversion of Marxism).

Anathema

Anathema

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Point taken, I should have said "adaption of stalinism to local cultural factors".

I may be wrong about autarky being a trait of marxism, but I have always assumed so. I do know that in post-revolutionary Moscow there was a lot of pressure for cutting all ties with the outside world and develop a socialist economy independently, but I guess that's not a general attribute then.

At any rate, I stil feel that Kim Il Sung's pride was what made him change the official ideology to Juche. (isn't that just Korean for autarky anyway?) Afterall how is North Korea different from the SU or China (before the Xiaoping reforms), except for being even worse on pretty much everything?

Edric O

Edric O

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Christianity is a form of judaism, that's for sure. On spiritual sphere, both metaphysical or ethical teachings are exactly the same.

No they are not; the New Testament changes and adds many things, right down to fundamental questions like the nature of God. For example, Christians believe in the Trinity, while Jews do not.

In any case, I used Christianity and Judaism only as a term of comparison. If you don't like it, I can always think of another comparison - but I think you understood my point anyway. A certain branch of an ideology/philosophy/religion/etc can become so different from the original that it turns into a new ideology/philosophy/religion/etc in its own right.

Edric O

Edric O

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Posted

Point taken, I should have said "adaption of stalinism to local cultural factors".

That might be true - I don't know enough about Juche to say whether it's just a strange and exotic branch of stalinism or a fully independent ideology. However, Juche clearly "comes out of the closet" and openly proclaims all the un-marxist things that stalinism normally tries to hide. For example, Juche says that people are not and should not be equal, and that social hierarchy and inequality are good things. Stalinism would never admit to supporting inequality. In other words, where stalinism says "all people are equal, but some are more equal than others", Juche simply says "people are not equal; the Party is above ordinary citizens, and the Great Leader is above all".

I may be wrong about autarky being a trait of marxism, but I have always assumed so. I do know that in post-revolutionary Moscow there was a lot of pressure for cutting all ties with the outside world and develop a socialist economy independently, but I guess that's not a general attribute then.

You're probably thinking of Bukharin's thesis of "socialism in one country" (Stalin later stole the idea, modified it, and claimed he was the one who first thought of it - but that's another story). That was just one of several plans for the future that were circulating in post-revolutionary Russia. It was never more than an "add-on" to marxism, and it was meant to answer only the particular problems that Russia was facing at the time - it wasn't a generalized theory. In any case, the idea of "socialism in one country" only calls for a large degree of economic independence, not for the kind of near-total autarky that North Korea has.

At any rate, I stil feel that Kim Il Sung's pride was what made him change the official ideology to Juche.

Probably, yes.

(isn't that just Korean for autarky anyway?)

It's Korean for "self-reliance", apparently... I don't know if they use the same word for autarky.

Afterall how is North Korea different from the SU or China (before the Xiaoping reforms), except for being even worse on pretty much everything?

For one thing, it's far more closed to the outside world. Even the USSR at the height of the Great Purge or China during the Cultural Revolution were more open than North Korea. Also, the kind of insane things that were temporary in the Soviet Union or China (and that only happened under Stalin and Mao and stopped after their death), such as absurd personality cults, rampant paranoia and an all-powerful secret police, are permanent in North Korea. Finally, North Korea is far more militarized than any stalinist regime ever was. The military eats up around 25% of the nation's GDP. And then there are the ideological differences between stalinism and Juche that I mentioned before...

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