The Golden Path

[UsulSK]

Hi,

can someone explain Leto's "Golden Path" to me?  I never fully understood it.  It sounded a little bit like the philosophy of Nietzsche.  But according to the books, which great danger would have happened to humankind, if the "Golden Path" is destroyed?

[Mahdi]

The Golden Path was a period of froced stagnation where the only available form of transportation for non-government workers was there own two feet.  This is so that when Leto II died, everyone would be free to go exploring, something which hadn't happened for so long, and spread humanity over billions of heretofor unknown planets garunteeing humkind's survival.

The great danger is the extinction of humankind.  Paul thought the Golden Path would destroy humanity because of its stagnation instead of prolonging its existence.

[gryphon]

I think it was a little bit more than just that.

He did forbit travel so the abillety to travel whould symbolise freedom.

And I think that is what he gave to humanity with his Golden Path. The abbilety to survive. The Golden Path didn't just end with the death of Leto II. Chapterhouse the effects are still there and ongoing. Think of the returning of the people that whent of in the scattering.

The Bene Gesserit called Paul "the man who can see in the place we can not". And when he saw that place, he looked as what could be the future, a possible outcome. This had to be stopped, or diverted so to speek. Paul wasn't strong enough to do what had to be done so his sone Leto II did it. He created "his" Golden Path.

Mayby you can compair it with Nietzsche, as he took every certanty we knew and twisted it to his own vision.

In some way you can say Leto II gave namkind freedom, he ultimate freedom. No war, no hunger everybody is equall ( in Lock's and Plato's interpretation, equall as equall and non-equall as non-equall ). In some way's the ultimate socialty as some philosophers call it. And he made shure that every precausion was taken that manind would have the abillety to survive in the future.

This is probbebly what someone who tink who thinks of the God Emperor as a "good" persone, one who thiks he is a tirant would simply say he oppressed humanety.

[Mahdi]

"And I think that is what he gave to humanity with his Golden Path. The abbilety to survive."

Thats what I said.

"The Bene Gesserit called Paul "the man who can see in the place we can not". And when he saw that place, he looked as what could be the future, a possible outcome. This had to be stopped, or diverted so to speek. Paul wasn't strong enough to do what had to be done so his sone Leto II did it. He created "his" Golden Path."

Thats your opinion.  Myself, I think Paul saw the path and decided that it was to risky to take (he says as much during his first conversation with Leto II in COD).  Ever since the day he had been born he had been taught the evils of stagnation, and the most important part of the Golden Path was the enforced stagnation, at the end of which there would be the typhon struggle, where humanity either died out or exploded across the cosmos so that the human speicies would be able to survive indefinatly.  He didn't think humanity would survive the typhon sturgle due to all the stagnation, so he didn't follow that path.

"Mayby you can compair it with Nietzsche, as he took every certanty we knew and twisted it to his own vision."

No, the Golden Path is definatly not Nietzscheian.   Nietzsche's philosophy is one of selfishness and greed.  "Screw the other guy" is what it boils down to.  If that was the way Leto felt he would never have followed his golden path, as his life was a continious torture.  Both Leto and Paul had utilitarian philosophies, not Nietzscheian.

"In some way you can say Leto II gave namkind freedom, he ultimate freedom.  No war, no hunger everybody is equall"

So, you beleve that a dictatorial rule and police state with no responsibility to the people with forced religion, strict transportation laws, no freedom of speech,  etc. is the ultimate form of freedom?

[Tsar]

Criminy, I sertintaly hope not!  That would be, I don't know, wrong!

[gryphon]

You'r right Mahdi, it's not the entire philosophy of Nietzsche. Mayby just a bit of his "knowledge" theory. In that theory he states that every "vorm" you submit to relity is exually OUR own interpretation of reality. We are not in direct contact with every thing that surrounds us, it's our own knowledge and vieuwpoint that create reality as wee see it.

And when UsulSK compaired Nietzsche with Leto II, I thought he was revering to this. Leto II took some way's they looked at the univers and changed that.

And in some way's you can see it as the ultimate freedom.

Compair it with our own justice state. The laws in most country's, America, Great Brittain and Europe are based on Lock's theory of human rights. It basically say, protect me and my posessions against you. Make laws everyone has to follow in certain situations so we can protect ourselfs and predict eacht other. Then you institute a government who's primairy task it is to uphold those laws, punnish people who don't follow them and the 3th part of the trias politica keep the law up to date.

Now this is in some why what Leto II did, only without the people who make the law, he made it himself.

And I agree with you that he was a tyrant. But you don't have to seem him like that.

As you know the definition of freedom is different from persone to persone, but a state with one leader who makes shure that eatch of his "followers" has the same changes / options in the same different kinds of situations as one other, and secures a individuals freedom comes verry close to most peolples basic description of freedom.

That's also why somany poeple believe in a form of a God. The only downside to this is that that one persone "could" be an evil one. Thake Machiavelli for that and a lot of dictators in our world. But if that persone is a good one,......well we have God.

So if you believe that Leto II had a good personallity, you might say that he was indeed the God Emperor and gave us our ideal sociaty.

We that found out that we are only human and that perfection is not for us.

Now I realise this could be a verry big statement but think of it, it doesn't directly contradict any of the things we believe in now, it just changes them in a way whe would never think they could be changed.

[ordos45]

My own views on the Golden path.  These all seem to coexist with your alls.

1. The Golden path was humanity's survival.

2. He restricted travel to make people long for the ability to travel, after your family has lived hundreds of genrations restricted to one planet the urge to leave becomes very great and thus the Scattering, the insurance that the Golden pth has been successful.

3. The bene Gesserit, he knew how vital they would become and that they would be humanity's hope during one of the future's darker times.  The Honored matres nearly exstinguishing the flame known as humanity.

4.  Love.  He knew that love would conquer the hate and that love would drive people to foolishness, and to wars, and to scatterings.  For in this universe there are three absolutely dangerous things, love, faith, and truth.

[gryphon]

Just a small remark to your 3th point Ordos45.

Isn't there still the possebilety that the Honored Matres are human ( people returning from the scattering unde Leto II ) so that when the would have whon it wouldn't maen the end of humanity ?

( The Bene Gesserit did have an inportant role in that change that accured. And without them I most likely would have turned out a compleatly different way. )

[ordos45]

Oh yeah they are human *sweatdrop* Anyhow, they probably would have fought between themselves anyhow and killed each other.  The Ones of Many Faces (Face Dancer enemies of the Honored matres) may have survived had it not been for the BG, and they not being human would have probably begun a new race....

[TW]

The Honoured Matres weren't the danger the Golden Path was setup against.  If it was, it would have meant the Golden Path failed horribly.

In God Emperor of Dune, Leto II tells Siona (or thinks to himself while he's testing her, I forget) that by this time most of humanity would be dead if it weren't for him, hunted by machines.  Which is strange because Leto II himself used more 'forbidden' technology than anyone else in the Imperium since the the Bulterian Jihad.

But whatever danger faces humanity at the end of Chapterhouse:Dune was most likely unforseen by Leto II.  He couldn't see Siona, or anyone descended from her.  And many, many people by the time of the Returning had the so-called 'Mark of Siona'.  I find it miraculous that Leto II could even leave a message for Ordade in Sietch Tabr.  By that point, there are so many X factors that he can't see, I don't know how he could know what's going on.

[gryphon]

"I don't know how he could know what's going on."

[TW]

It's my opinion that Leto II didn't see much past the events in Heretics.  His whole idea was to free humanity, make sure all the eggs weren't in the same basket.  To do so, he helped create Siona and her abilities (basically a no-person).  I doubt he forsaw the Ones With Many Faces forcing the HM's back into the Old Imperium, he was more worried about machines hunting down humans, something he most definetely prevented.

He couldn't see past things in Heretics because of all the "no-people" running around.  Things progressed past his line of vision...and that was his plan.  Taraza, Odrade, and eventually Teg, all saw it didn't work quite well enough: they destroyed Dune (or maybe it was part of Leto's grand scheme to have the destroy it, either way).  

It's kind of a pointless argument, though.  I could say he didn't forsee the danger of the Ones With Many Faces, and Sheena will somehow have to forge a new plan to defeat them (in 7).  Someone else could say, "Well it was Leto's plan to have her do something."  And it can't be proven either way.  Without what Leto wrote at Sietch Tabr, I would say he didn't know that the BG would have to augment his plan by destroying Rakis.  But taking into account what he said....well maybe he knew Taraza had died, that Odrade would go ahead with her plan....but he couldn't have known what Teg would do, he had the mark of Siona, and abilities beyond the God Emperor, in some respects.

Who knows?

[Vernius]

Basically what i though of it was that beeing a

creature of multiply personalities gave Leto

a perspective of time unknown to other people.

His Golden Path was to alter humanity, and

to change it into.........something different.

I think he wanted humanity to rid itself of

the "caveman" origin-.

[gryphon]

I get your point TW.

[quoudam72]

TW has a good point in his post but Vernius explain your "caveman" comment just more I think I understand your perspective on it.

[nemafakei]

The problem is that you can't go on indefinitely. There's only so much that Leto could do to Change the future. Freankly, I don't think it was important what exactly occured after his reign, as long as certain events happened and had their effect.

[quoudam72]

Frankly, I don't think it was important what exactly occured after his reign, as long as certain events happened and had their effect.

And I think the book God Emperor of Dune supports that assumption about Leto II because he makes a statement in the book about how "they do not see what I have done" without telling too much to those who have not read the book.

[ordos45]

maybe, we look to much at the events and less at what may be the solution.  Maybe he saw that humans needed sonstant struggle to grow and learn.  Maybe that was what he saw we needed to survive.

[quoudam72]

Or making the inhabitians of the Duniverse stronger to survive the future by enforcing his "Golden path" so in that I agree partly with the previous statement.

[gryphon]

Just a small note to your point on what you said on "indefinitely" Nema Kakei. If Paul and his son Leto II could realy see time as a singular point, it wouldn't be a constant anymore. In other words, the 4th dimension "time" wouldn't be a dimension anymore but one singalar point. All events in "time" would than be vissable in / on /at that point.

Again, it's not ment to agrue with you, just a note to ad to yours.

[UsulSK]

I guess one of the major themes in "Dune" is determination or free will.  The books talk a lot of humans acting because they have to and because they are bound to purposes.   And the possibility of Paul to see the future, proves that humans are not able to decide freely.  And the Golden Path seems to put an end to that and to free mankind to allow them to think and act truly free.  A prove of my theory is the fact, that some people couldn't be seen in the future any more somewhere in the last two books.

[gryphon]

The fact that you can't "see" sertain people doesn't mean you can't and don't know about what they are doing or will do. The God emperor said this also about the Ixian Nospaces. He could see inside it but that wasn't nessesary. He saw what left and reapeard in space. So you do know what is going on without seeing it. You see a persone bu the acts he commits, not by the space that he occupies, the acts you can't hide. So you can still see and know the future.

[Edric O]

That's it, I've GOT to get those other Dune books! I wish I could join this discussion, if only I knew more about those other books. :( Must... get... more... DUNE!

[TMA_1]

I think also the golden path is the evolution of man. through his control over the breeding process. I dont believe in macro evolution but I must say it adds depth to the story. I hope I am right about a little of it being the advancment of mankind.