Frank Herbert and the Sociology of Drugs

[TMA_1]

Geesh, frank really found this topic important. Drugs are, and indeed have been an important factor throughout history. You can see this from the earliest civilizations. From the Sumerians, who cultivated drugs like cannabis and opium (a funny sidelight is that their word for opium translates to "Joy Plant"), to the Vedic cultures who hailed psychodelics like the Fly Ageric (also called Soma, a mushroom), and various other drugs.

Now days we can see the effects all around us. A large majority of North America for example have tried cannabis, and a substantial minority have tried harder drugs.

We can even see drugs effect Government, and how the government acvtually uses drugs to take advantage of other peoples or nations. Like when western nations forced shipping of Opium on china, creating a huge chemical dependancy of the chinese people. This kind of thing goes all the way up to Vietnam, where the american government traded goods and services for heroin and other narcotics.

In Frank Herbert's various books, most of them deal with, or mention the impact of various drugs. Here is a list of just a few.

*WARNING* possible spoilers, beware.

The Santeroga Barrier: The story itself involves a jouralist who tries to enter a town that has shut itself off from the world. He finds the secret to why this happens. It is all because they share a communal love for (and seem to share a communal consciousness while taking) "Jaspers". We later find out while reading the book that Jaspers are a form of psychodelic Mushroom.

[Davidu]

Every thing we NEED in order to live our daily lives creates dependancy, and "he who controls" that resource controls the masses. It might be a metaphora: drug means addiction. What are you addicted to? ( rhetorical question  ;D ) What do you enjoy? What do you use daily?

You watch TV every day? Can you be controlled by the TV media? Yes! If they say one thing louder than the truth, even if you are a smart and honest person you will be misinformed, and therefore controlled.

The drug addicts are the extreme: if they don't have drugs they'll have huge pain, right? Well, what if these drugs were to be supressed all at once, and someone would come forward and say: "I'll give you all the drugs you want, just do me a service". Those people will do ANYTHING.

Imagine this: a people who's pride, economy has been destroyed through a war. Someone comes and promises them pride, glory, a bright future... actualy self-esteem. They'll follow him without question. Does this ring a bell? Germany - 1930s - Hitler.

As I said, in Dune the drugs can also mean these things.

Also, what you said is true. Drugs, no matter their type have always been in our society. Some of them go back for so long we don't consider them drugs: alcohol, tobacco. Even music at some point can be a drug.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Germany - 1930s - Hitler.

Wow... Godwin's Law never fails... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Digital Guerrilla]

For those faithful that are wondering here is some insight.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. *In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's Law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin's Law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

Gunz you should really learn the rules if your going to play.

[nemafakei]

Frank Herbert pointed it out first.

See the introduction to 'Eye'.

[Dunenewt]

Wow... Godwin's Law never fails... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Also on this page:

"Freiler's Maxim:

    Those that incorrectly invoke Godwin as proof that they have won the debate have in fact run out of relevant points to make, and have, by invoking Godwin, admitted defeat. "

[Davidu]

My example was about telling pwople what they want to hear in order to follow you. Give another example if you know...  :-

Anyone about the drugs, please...  :O

[TMA_1]

thanks guys, for automatically ruining my post with garbage.lol ;)

now could we get back on subject please? sorry, but honestly this is the kind of stuff that should be talked about in PRP. I dont care about godwin's law, as it sounds pretty one sided and foolish, and if oyu do want to discuss godwins law, then go to PRP please. thanks.

please go back on subject.

[Dunenewt]

I think he's just showing that drugs are still a part of society as they are now.

[Davidu]

That's so laconic Dunenewt! I couldn't have said it in fewer words even if I wanted to.  :D

[Dunenewt]

Well that's my opinion on that anyway.

[nemafakei]

I suspect it is more the case, as Davidu suggested to begin with, that he is commenting on other parts of society: drugs, from spice to th Water of Life to Semuta are just an analogy to represent factors in our society which control us, represent our dependancies.

Perhaps on occasion, this also applies to drugs in our world, but I think the point he is making is far more about our attitudes to resources and to our daily habits.

[Davidu]

Nema, are you an attorney, or a politician? You sure know how to make something clear.

[Andrew]

He is a mentat, according to his title.

[nemafakei]

Nah, I'm a classicist. I can garble anything you like.

I'm just fond of extensive subordinate clauses.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gunz you should really learn the rules if your going to play.

i wasnt trying to "win a battle" or "end the discussion by invoking"

[SpiceGuid]

@TMA

why would drug such a big issue to him?

drug is joy, and joy is the ultimate reward, so drug is a reward system, and reward system is how you build societies.

@Davidu

dependancy is not bad per se.

life depends on sun, on air, on water.

love is dependancy.

no dependancy, no joy.

the TV function is to ensure social cohesion, not to tell you the truth. dependancy is bad only when it leads to destruction.

[Davidu]

@ SpiceGuid - Have I ever said I love you man??  8)

Anyway... no dependancies would mean total isolation... and that's near death... so it's bad. I know you're right, but lesser dependancies mean more independance. And I like that.

[Khan]

I simply said it never fails and it doesnt. :D

sometimes using Hitler or the Nazis is a perfectly apt way of making a point

Every rule has an exception, this is one of them. It is stupid to create a rule that says that topics are 'old' if they mention Hitler, because it allows people to bring it up whenever they are losing an argument and someone uses it.

Back on topic, this shows my views, and some other peoples views, on Dune and drugs.

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/index.php?topic=9699.0

[nemafakei]

"dependancy is bad only when it leads to destruction"

Or when someone controls the dependency: The Baron over (?)Nefud, eventuially Muad'Dib over the guild, space travel and all humanity, some of the water merchants at the Atreides' banquet over much of the Arrakeen economy, and so forth.

[TMA_1]

that is a good point man.

The baron basically told him or implied to him simply that if he did a good job, the shipments of semuta wouldnt stop. There it is again, using drugs as a boon to those who are addicted, to keep them faithful and true. Piter is liek that with his spice as well in a way.

The thing is the baron thinks to himself that Nefud is silly for letting himself become depednant on anything, because that can be used against him. Rembmer the baron said that it was weak minded of him. great point. That is why this interests me so much. I have not read an author that deals with the problem of drugs in such an interesting and profound way. It really proves a lot of points, as well as show a lot of scary ones too.

[Dunenewt]

And don't forget when the Baron controlled Hawat as well.

[SpiceGuid]

@Davidu

i am also in love and have written some touching poems for her.

i could post them in Fiction forum but french is not allowed, and translation would lost the magic in my approximate english. would be much work also. may be one day.

@all

you mean one can be controlled by drugs, just like the blond sex slave in Scarface. but what's the problem if she likes drugs and sex?

you seem to ignore the fact that dependancy is desired.

Nefud uses the Baron to get his Semuta.

the Baron is addicted to power so he is dependant to his ability to deliver some Semuta. the Baron is silly for letting himself become addicted to power, that makes him the slave of Nefud.

to control the dependancy is actually powerless, because it only satisfies the desire. 

your point of view about drugs is simply marxist, you try to save the moral standards, i don't think that's what FH meant.

[Digital Guerrilla]

I think it was a subject because of the real world cultures that he studied to make the Duniverse.

[TMA_1]

if the person likes the drugs, then you can control them all the more easily. These drugs require physical dependance, and the more they do them, the more they need them. Once they are physically dependant, they cant stop without serious intervention. Because of this they are completely used. Hope that answers the question. :)