The old God question

[nemafakei]

A while since we've aired our views on this particular one.

So, the fundamental question is: Do you think that there is a god? Or indeed more than one?

How sure are you in your belief either way?

And, crucially, why?

Me, I'm not convinced there isn't one, but I think the balance of the evidence points to a lack. The gist of my arguments against is "If there is a god, why the hell did this god make the world as it is?". But there are many more arguments for and against: lets have some of the newer faces describe their reasons.

[Andrew]

I was just talking to God down at the pub. We had a few beer, talked about good times.

[Caid Ivik]

Question was wrongly placed. I would ask: what is God?

[nemafakei]

Agreed. Theists ought to describe what they mean when they talk or thing about god, and perhaps there are some atheists or agnostics who might also wish to describe what they think god would be like.

[Caid Ivik]

Atheism is more a view on god as pure "arche", an impersonal and perhaps irrational thing. But in fact defining arche is nothing else than a way to pantheism... Theism takes it as "theos", an infinity creating (or we can say allowing) finity, or another form of "outer" creator. At least that's how I see it.

[SpiceGuid]

my stupid question:

what God can compute that Turing machine can not?

[Tio_Holtzmann]

the price of a pint of coconut juice in kingston town.

you know i'm right, tio 1, turing 0

[TMA_1]

I remember a part in this book called Calculating God, a pretty damn good book which was written by an athiest actually.

It has to do with this alien race that lands on earth, and this race actually believes in a creator. This totally disallusions the main character, who is a scientist who totally does NOT believein any sort of deity, or thinks that the deity is totally unpersonal if there is one.

In one of his attempts to prove the alien wrong, he brings out an old computer program that is based on three rules, and what happens is the computer program actually creates something very similar to life, actually imitating it in many ways. You guys have probably heard of this.

so the alien asks, so who is the creator of the program? and the guy tells him the name of the creator of it.

the alien says "then he is the God of that program."

I know this is really simplistic, but honestly it makes a lot of sense.

Over time I have seen that the cosmological date of the universe is totally accurate, and cannot be disputed. But if you study the staggering chances that this universe has to be an incubator of sorts for life, than it can blow you away. For a long time I thought that maybe the theory that there are many alternate universes that parallel ours could solve that question. Because if you have a near infinite amount of universes than you could drastically change the chances that life randomly evolved. The problem is that theory is pretty much dead now in most scientific communities, which was a shock to me when I read about it. It has too many holes in it, and it has pretty much been proven that no alternate universe could continually exist in sync with our universe.

So those chances still stand, and people should look them up. I mean it is mind blowing. This is one major reason why I still believe in a deity.

Also another reason is shocking. It is actually archeology and history.

If you read the historians of the ancient past, you constantly hear of famous events like the flood, and the scattering of languages. I mean you can hear of the language scattering myth from china to central america. You can hear historians just talk of the babel incident as if it is just plain fact. I mean there is a greek historian who just commonly talks of the "babel incident" like it is the truth. Saying that it is where peoples and cultures were seperated. I mean even babylon itself takes its name from Babel, or confusion. The babylonians themselves called the tower of babel the "tongue tower" where "all languages were confused". Not only this but take for example new excavations and old ones as well where they have found cities. This may not be shocking, but the names of the cities are. For example one city in modern Iran has been found which is called, and this is no joke, "Nimrod el bar cush". Does anybody realize what this means? It means Nimrod son of Cush. In the bible Nimrod was the first great king after the flood, and he was the perpitrator of the seperation of languages because of is great arrogance, and one of his sons, a great leader, was called Cush. his peoples would eventually become the dravidians, the ancient sumarians, and ethiopians, as well as many others.

You can also find ancient historians that commonly talk about ancient relics of a time before the flood, like Josephus' story of the "great stone pillars" that wer emade by seth as a "monument to the two destructions." The first by water, which would be destroyed by the flood, and the second made of stronger material would survive till the destruction by fire. Josephus tells exactly where this pillar is and that at his time it was still around and many visited it as a sacred spot for many mystery religions as well as other sorts of cults.

This as well as many other reasons just leave me t obeleivein a deity.

[SpiceGuid]

the price of a pint of coconut juice in kingston town.

you know i'm right, tio 1, turing 0

so Turing machines are theorem provers and God is a coconut juice pricer ;D

well, more honestly, i understand the believer point of view.

however, i prefer to imagine God, not as a person, but as a princeps.

[Dante]

Bible is based on reality, not the other way around. If ancient cities have the same names as cities in the bible, that is because they are the same cities with the same people that have been glorified by lying old men.

My general opinion is that I have no opinion. There may be a god, there most likely isn't. But I'm keeping my options open, just in case. If pressed, I will say that there most likely isn't a god, creator, deity, etc. I see no evidence for one, and all the evidence that has been provided I have disproven to my own satisfaction; from the difficult arguments to the utter idiocy. Notice how I won't actually move away from 'probably' and 'possibly' until I'm actually in an argument.

[mordusxxx]

There is a god, some sort of superpowerful energy that controls the universe, and neme he gave us free will, so that we make our own desicions, then we can be good or bad whichever we feel we need to do, our lives are already written we are just fullfilling them imho

[nemafakei]

"I know this is really simplistic, but honestly it makes a lot of sense"

Basically, it's just an anlaogy demonstrating the idea that everything must have come from something. A cut-down version of Empr's 3 options. Not to say it hasn't some meaning to it.

My problem with that is that it's trying to apply methods that work within the universe to the universe itself. It effectively describes the behaviour of things which are already in existence, moving from one place to another (formed rather than created). The universe - the all-that-exists - does not necessarily require an initiator, because there is no stage at which the universe does not exist.

Regarding the historical evidence... Firstly, I agree with Dust Scout, though in less harsh terms: the bible reflects history because it is a record of it. It is only when history and the bible diverge that there is an inconsistency - correlation is just a lack of error, not a proof of any kind.

Furthermore, I'd like to note that many civilisations have very similar mythical traditions.

Take the latter half of Odyssey IX, for example - the Cyclops incident, of which I'm sure you're all aware. From the middle east to mediaeval france and many others, the same story - but with different details - is replicaed throughout the world.

Consequently, it is unsurprising when biblical sources agree with the local traditions and cultural myths of other areas.

[TMA_1]

I didnt say I could prove anything nema. you are right in many ways, but see I dont try to prove to myself the existance of a deity, it just comes naturally to me. I have tried earlier in my life to prove my faith, and argued and argued, still do sometimes but realized it just doesnt work that way. I have just realized now that it just makes most sense.

it is dangerous nema to look down on the history of the ancients, discrediting it like it shouldnt be trusted. sure, there are times when it obviously is false, or misleading, but honestly there is a lot of good information from the past. and it is just not honest to throw away all the information of the past because some of it is tainted by the passing of time.

There is no smoking gun, and there never will be, so it is difficult to argue the subject, but honestly I believe that all the signs point to something out there.

do you really understand though the importance of a find like "nimrud el bar c

[nemafakei]

I'm not saying it's false or untrustworthy. I'm saying that just because it's historically correct doesn't mean the religion is correct.

[Dante]

There is a god, some sort of superpowerful energy that controls the universe, and neme he gave us free will, so that we make our own desicions, then we can be good or bad whichever we feel we need to do, our lives are already written we are just fullfilling them imho

Wait... let me get this straight. You actually believe that our lives are predetermined, "our lives are already written" and you think we have free will. "and neme he gave us free will"

...How on earth do you rationalise those two together?

[mordusxxx]

we have a say so in if we want to change what is written down just like an author has when he writes his books. he doesnt just write it down and say ok im done, he goes back through and sees if thats what he wants. man u are really not as smart as u put yourself as, are u. think for a second before u go putting your egotistic biased opinion out here on a free speeched coloumn. got it.

[HasimirFenring]

Someone get the fire extinguisher, the flames are spreading...

I'm an atheist, but in a strange way I do believe in a form of predetermination (not in any Christian sense).  Physics tells us that, if you were able to see into the future (with your time machine), what you see would be the unchangeable future, becuase your knowledge of it has already been factored in when you looked.  In that way, physics agrees with predetermination.  No god(s) necessary.

[TMA_1]

Well we have a free will, but God knows what we do as he knows all things. Because of this he works around our actions. It is rather simple actually.

and I agree nema. But if a belief has much historical accuracy, it does lend a boon to that belief.

[Dante]

we have a say so in if we want to change what is written down just like an author has when he writes his books. he doesnt just write it down and say ok im done, he goes back through and sees if thats what he wants. man u are really not as smart as u put yourself as, are u. think for a second before u go putting your egotistic biased opinion out here on a free speeched coloumn. got it.

At least I can articulate myself properly in the language of the forum.

But if god already has everything mapped out... then any changes made through free will destroy that predetermination. And since free will inherantly produces things that are unpredictable, how can anything be known beforehand? Free will and god's predetermination are not compatible.

[Caid Ivik]

Someone get the fire extinguisher, the flames are spreading...

I'm an atheist, but in a strange way I do believe in a form of predetermination (not in any Christian sense).  Physics tells us that, if you were able to see into the future (with your time machine), what you see would be the unchangeable future, becuase your knowledge of it has already been factored in when you looked.  In that way, physics agrees with predetermination.  No god(s) necessary.

Greek view on the world. You believe the world is a machine, which simply goes, and if you understand hot it works, you can determine how events would go. God would be a word maximally for creator or a starter, any personalization of it is unnecessary. But what about human freedom, is there no hermeneutic spark on your mind?  ;D

[HasimirFenring]

Greek view on the world. You believe the world is a machine, which simply goes, and if you understand hot it works, you can determine how events would go. God would be a word maximally for creator or a starter, any personalization of it is unnecessary. But what about human freedom, is there no hermeneutic spark on your mind?  ;D

Thats why I find this so strange...  Of course we have free will, we have no choice but to exercise it!  ;)

Sorry, I really love that line.  I do believe in free will, but physics predicts (or so I've read) that if you COULD see the future, that future is unchangeable.

[Dante]

There is no free will, only the illusion of it. That thing with the physics is true. It can also be explained with common sense.

[Caid Ivik]

About seeing future, I would say this is more philosophical than scientifical question. Same with illusivity of free will, which really depends on your personal wisdom, out of it is every decision based on randomness or your feeling.

[SurlyPIG]

At least I can articulate myself properly in the language of the forum.

But if god already has everything mapped out... then any changes made through free will destroy that predetermination. And since free will inherantly produces things that are unpredictable, how can anything be known beforehand? Free will and god's predetermination are not compatible.

That depends on how you define free will.  I think of it as the ability to make decisions based on information gathered through the senses.  Essentially, the ability to go against the instinctive if we choose to.  In the case of a universe created by an omniscient God with the power of predetermination, we still can make our own decisions, but the stimuli that makes us come to our decisions is known and layed out for us beforehand.  Many would argue that this will to make decisions is, in that case, not so free.  I tend to agree.  The question is, what is meant by "free will" as told in the Bible?  And I think the answer will reveal more about the way you perceive the world than it has any bearing on what is true.

[Procyon]

I don`t think we have a free will or our life is written, everyone is writting his own life now. That thing about the time travel is right, but the future you see, is a future without you, because you have traveled from the past and you are missing in that future.

There's no God, but there's a Creator of life in the Earth (or maybe there's no creator),