The UN and Israel

[nemafakei]

"So according to my 1st paragraph, what do you want us to do? Or where are we wrong?"

As far as I am aware, leaving Lebanon was good, partly because I don't believe that fewer terrorists would attack you if you were in Lebanon. What I want you to do is to be consistent, and leave Palaestine, again, partly because I believe that terrorism would subside if it's got nothing really to be shrill at.

"That wasn't my point"

Correct, it was my previous question. And you've been very political about diving a yes or no answer.

"But as we go into it, more than 95% percenate of the Palestinian terror attacks are being stopped by the IDF only cause it looks every cm there, I don't wanna even imagine what would have happened if it won't"

I agree, that initially, you'd be hit hard if you kept out of palaestine (border control to get into Israel itself is fine). But after some time, not only would 95%+ of the terror attacks stop happening (and remember, you'd still be stopping a proportion of the remainder), but also the Palaestinians would bea damn sight better off.

[Shiroko]

Sure we see less attack from the hizzbullah these days. Instead we have an insane terrorist group armed with  more than 10000 long range rockets to a range of 120km holding them just for the right cause. What is the right cause who knows? They creating small incidents of shooting soldiers or bombing military outposts in order to drag Israel into something big.

Israeli control of the Egypt/Gaza strip borderline currently stops the palestinians from arming with 122mm rockets and the likes and limits them to homemade "kasam" rockets. When we will be out we will have less casualties in the start. But like in Lebanon, the question is what will happen in the long term.

The Israeli bombing of the Iraqi nuclear core was a did condoned by the entire world and in retrospective it was important. So I can't tell how will the situtation with the Hizzbulah or the Gaza strip will end later.

-Shiroko

And on a side note, the fence does not block palestinians from palestinains. palestinain villages that are behind the fence (And those a rare and decreasing in number with changes) have passes to go through, as time will go by their blockades will get better and more efficient. Those palestinains would anyway prefer their current situtation just like the palestinians in Baqa-el-Sharkia who lost from moving the fence and placing them on the palestinian side.

[erjin999]

Erjin, I think you mean gunships.

Nope. Come join me on Emperor and see thats what I've named them. They annoy me like hell. Its just how I write them.

But the point of the post was missed, possibly ? The terrorists are meant to be the ones with the WMD, no ? Why is it that Isreal, America, Britain, France....etc can have vast arsenals and declare other states terrorists, and then bomb the 3 shades of crap out of them ?

Isreal here goes in against a rag tag uprising with what I would call WMD in to attack a few armed millitia, and kill many civilian (collatteral damage)  :-

After all they have suffered I'd have thought they would have had more compassion.

[Shiroko]

Erjin, you seem to know very little.

Although israeli Apaches and occasionally even fighters are used for special missions (Meaning killing high priority targets), the IDF rarely uses collateral weapons aside that in the conflict.

We use mostly small arms where our technology advances come as better equipment for soldiers and better intelligence.

Civilians dies from getting into crossfire, mistaken identities (Which is something that cannot be prevented entirely) and the likes.

Artillery is not used at all, tanks are used mainly for their armor (More as an APC than a tank) and rarely uses their main 122mm (In special cases of palestinians detected setting bombs in open areas in the night).

The most collteral weapon is destroying walls with explosives which is used to go through extremly dangerous areas, though still most explosive damages after a mission inside Gaza is from all the palestinian bombs met during one operation (They place them anywhere including inside houses walls and under paved road, so naturally a neighbourhood looks a bit wrecked after IDF moved through, not because IDF did it, because palestinians did it).

Israel does have the technological advance here, but it is mostly use to confront the devious tactics of terrorists of using civilians as cover.

-Shiroko

[erjin999]

Including bulldozing houses with civillians in them ?

Bulldozing protesters to death ?

[leo]

Wha?  What? Bulldozing protesters to death? When? Where?

[leo]

If you speak of that incident when 1 American woman was killed by a bulldozer than you are entirely wrong, that happened only 1 time, it's not a system of our army or an order from the commanders. It wasn't done in purpose or anything, there were many investigations about that (part of them weren't Israeli if you have any doubts) which proved that there was no way the driver could see her at that particular timing. In addition this woman was asked and warned to leave that place many times by our soldiers because it's too dangerous there.

Even if it was done in purpose you can't blame Israel or its system cause of 1 crazy soldier. The bulldozer wasn't sent there in a mission to sqash as many protesters as it can you know...

[erjin999]

It was all over the media here. Let me look for it.

While I do, there was also the picture of that father, hiding his son, behind him, but his son still died. Forget his name now, let me search for both of these.

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=252948 - American one

http://www.tomhurndall.co.uk/media.asp - British guy

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index2.htm - Palistinian father/child

[attachment archived by Gobalopper]

[leo]

I already responded about that woman, read the post above. That child was shot dead by a Palestinian misfire, and as shiroko said you can't avoid mistakes, especially when there are fighting between our soldiers and Palestinian militants in the middle of a civilian city. BTW it was a very good site you linked here which showed the Israeli massacre...

[erjin999]

I was posting when you replied. I got that post has just been made message.

As for the misfire, thats not what it seems to be from seeing the pictures.

thanks for the compliment about the site  :P

[Shiroko]

First, I'd have to say you are a very weak minded person to believe most of what is seen in this site.

But I'd point off several things.

You need to witness a pro-palestinian protester to understand how she died. These guys are evrything but looking for peace. They provoke as much as possible in military and will throw themselves as shield to terrorists as targets. I'm quite amazed how little of them actually die doing all the extremely dangerous things they do like hanging in the middle of fire lines trying to force of fire.

Muhammad Al-Dura, his is a famous case it happened in the first few days of the rioting when there were mass rioting everywhere. Many investigations on this subject inclugin a german one in the exact spot came to conclusion that the direction the kid was hit from shows it was not Israeli fire but palestinian fire. But this does not mention if a few dozens of people have a fire fight and civilians are caught in the middle, there's nothing yuo can do. No one will stop shooting when being shot at, even if civilians are in the area (And spotting even if they shout isn't such an easy thing when you're under fire).

Needless to say that the "Trying to fool world...." header on the Israeli investigation area shows just how much integrity the site's editor has.

I ain't even gonna reply on the donkey issue, though I'm never surprised of how they abuse their poor donkeys. Defintely the guy who did that to donkey deserves something (But I liek animals so....)

Can't comment on the guy being shot, could be he tried  pulling. The robot afterwards is a sign he was suspected as a suicide bomber. It's a normal prodecure for every body, you can guess what they do with bodies.

The last 5 pictures are hilarious, they have nothing in them. As far as I know the first could be any palestinian baby who died. Several times in order to add to bodycount they took sick kids and said these were shot by IDF. In some cases they did fake funerals to actually live people, some of these cases filmed by Israeli air-drones.

The second picture as a guy in a bloackade I guess with some IDF soldier pointing his gun at what? Defintely not at the man if you look at the picture. What happens around who knows?

The third as a kid hangs on a fence., surprise here, palestinians build fences as well. In fect if it was the seperation fence the kid could never have gotten to the fence.

The fourth is even more ridicoulus, how do I even know the kid is palestinian, by the look of the rather new stone it seems more like the jewish quarter of hebron and a settlers kid playing around. On my three years I never seen someone lets his baby crawl around in an area with IDF soldiers.

The kid in the last picture is obviously almost crying... since he has that curious stare of seeing a soldier. Luckily the site tells us that unlike what it seems, the kid is very sad because his family just got turned back.

But if you're so much into propaganda, here you go:

http://israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0204.htm - funerals without dead people.

http://www.murmurs.com/talk/archive/index.php/t-70533.html - Unlike israeli actions, heres something which hits civilians on purpose.

http://truthnews.net/daily/2004080287.htm - When palestinians get shot for a reason.

http://www.michaelbernstein.com/weblog/archive/2002_03_27/view - Just another dirty trick.

O.K. these are few nice links. With much less dirty propaganda and more facts.

-Shiroko

[ordos45]

For those of you who read Reader's Digest, this month they have an article on propaganda, almost half of which is taken up by the Father/Son picture and how the Israelis didn't kill the kid.

[Shiroko]

I'll add something on the "executaion" pictures in the site you forwarded earlier erjin.

Here's a link about it:

http://www.israelemb.org/articles/2002/March/2002031201.html

Basically it was a guy wearing a explosives belt trying to activate it during disarming until he finally got the bullet he deserves.

Looks like an executation? it's identical to any criminal holding a gun making a sudden move. You won't even think about giving him the chance, you'll shoot him right away, preferbly to the head to prevent the few seconds he could use to retaliate.

-Shiroko

[Ninja_Sher]

The last time I checked Germany and France weren't at war, or a dispute.

And water is on a constant shortage in Israel, unlike Europe.

Anyway, if you can't control your fanatics, no resolution will help. And the palestinians do not control their fanatics, and can't make them stop any of the attacks.

-Shiroko

The Israelis are biggest failure at that. Try to Remember who is it that killed their own PM Itzhak Rabin and for what reason?

ps : So it is truly 1.3 Euro given as a donation to help rebuild Palestine infrastructure? That was teasing.

[Shiroko]

The murder of Izhak Rabin only encourged peace. And because of it there is much more surveilence on radical rightous groups than before its murder. It stands as a one man did, which no one support to this day. Unlike the terrorist groups of the palestinians.

Since the start of the riots several israeli fanatics were arrested for preventing them to act or while they were trying to bomb palestinian sites, though I must admit the legal control on radicals needs improvement, they are still working completely underground and stealthly unlike the palestinian groups who can freely roam the grounds and be ignored by any palestinian authority (At those times and in more peacful times)

-Shiroko

[Ninja_Sher]

The murder of Izhak Rabin only encourged peace. And because of it there is much more surveilence on radical rightous groups than before its murder. It stands as a one man did, which no one support to this day. Unlike the terrorist groups of the palestinians.

Since the start of the riots several israeli fanatics were arrested for preventing them to act or while they were trying to bomb palestinian sites, though I must admit the legal control on radicals needs improvement, they are still working completely underground and stealthly unlike the palestinian groups who can freely roam the grounds and be ignored by any palestinian authority (At those times and in more peacful times)

-Shiroko

Dude how can Plaestine have authority if their police has to ask the Isr gov for permission to use the gun?

[leo]

How can we allow them to have an armed police if it shoots on our babies with the same weapons WE gave them to keep order?

[nemafakei]

Power brings responsibility. Palaestinians generally have no power over the terrorists, and cannot be held accountable. The only people with any power are Arafaat, who is clearly an ass, the leaders of the terrorist organisations, who are clearly in the wrong, and the Israelis (who, as a democracy, have power over their government).

This is the fundamental question of who is/isn't in a position of responsibility.

[Dude_Doc]

But no one can blame an authority that doesn't exist.

[Shiroko]

Guys, the authority existed  in full force prior to the riots.

After that it was weakened by terrorists who gotten to much freedom from it and by Israel because we'd rather have it weakened than harm us. Not only Arafat supported terror there, most of them did. Palestinian key people who don't support terror got support and respect from Israel, though this is also limited in order not to make it look for the palestinian people that they're more important to us than to them.

The palestinian authority had the power, and responsibility. Acts of lynching, leaving people to die and firing Israelis brought them to there state.

I find it to be rather ridiculus to think that Israel is responsible for the terror attacks, especially when the initiative is of the palestinian's from the start.

-Shiroko

[nemafakei]

I'm not saying Arafaat and co. are not responsible - they are - but the problem as a whole is not the fault of the palaestinians, but their leaders (and yours). It's just that you are actually responsible for choosing your leaders...

[Dude_Doc]

Yes, but that is because they are so many. Any form of government, in our time, can not stop an angered people. Besides, as you said, the Palestinian police (in the form they are in) are willing to shoot at Israelis if they get the chance, then how can anyone expect them to take control?

Then again, it's all about the border question. North and South Korea (perhaps not the same thing) did it over one war (and technically they are still at war with each other), and even they don't have many walls (or any walls at all).

However, I hope there will be a resolution soon. If I were a dictator (or a benelovent democratically elected leader, and the "country"/military would do as I said etc), I would set the borders as they were in the 1960's (the original map), and I would warn my own people and suggest that they moved over to the set border. I mean, sure, people want to live where they do, but do they think about the future? The cities built? Why even build them?

[ordos45]

Arafat is an ass, like Nema said, and the Palestinians are beginning to realize that.

[nemafakei]

North and South Korea have a large area of land between them riddled with barbed wire and landmines, fortified and watched continuously to make sure nothing crosses.

"Then again, it's all about the border question"

Border control by wall is fine, if the country making the wall does so within their own country.

Edit: Arafaat's influence is rightly diminishing, both in Palaestine and outside.

At the end of the day, the UN's general ruling is that Israel is the occupying force, and it is no less responsible for protecting the rights of all its citizens/subjects than Iran, say, is responsible for preventing religious persecuation of any group by anyone in their territory.

[thomas]

the UN did not give israel land, that is bullshit!

if was the british who did so and it was from british land