Finally .... a clear explanation of the problem of Islamic Salvation

[GUNWOUNDS]

Why did people need to sacrifice things then?

I don't really see the idea of killing an animal(or even a human) to get rid of your sins.

It was a show of faith... just a symbol.  It made people understand that sin causes death.  Also it would be something that was very important to them.  They often killed their "best" lamb/bull which would be a great loss to them and they would understand how hurtful and destructive sin was and why it should be loathed.  It did not really get rid of their sins.  That is why they had to wait for Jesus before they were able to see God again.

[TMA_1]

hmm hope I am not posting too late on this issue, that always happens to me darn it! lol

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were innocent. They were clean slates that neither knew independant good or evil. See, they only followed God and his plans. They never even comprehended doing good or evil for themselves. A lot of christians and non christians alike think that if you do good, that you are doing God's will. The thing is though you arent. If you do good or evil without being in fellowship with God, then it is all pointless. You could give millions to charity, but still it would be worthless if it wasent for the sake of the lord and doing his will.

So Adam and Eve were not really knowledgable of any sort of independant act (good or evil). When they ate of the fruit, the fruit itself was just a sign of their independance from God. So in a way nema you are correct. They searched for knowledge all their own, not for the will of God. They wanted to be like gods themselves, deliniating from good and evil, which is a very very profound idea.

Lots of people may laugh at that, or think we christians (who believe this doctern I am talking about, because not all do) are simpletons who have no intellect at all. That isnt it at all. We simply want to do God's will, and that is all. If you do anything else outside his will then you are doing evil.

In the hebrew, it doesnt say "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". It translates to "the tree of the knowledge of good, even evil". See, outside of Gods will, all is vain and therefore evil.

I am just stating my docternal ideas, and not trying to force opinion on anybody else, just trying to clarify for those who dont fully understand to see what mine and many other people's docterns mean.

[GUNWOUNDS]

hmm hope I am not posting too late on this issue, that always happens to me darn it! lol

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were innocent. They were clean slates that neither knew independant good or evil. See, they only followed God and his plans. They never even comprehended doing good or evil for themselves. A lot of christians and non christians alike think that if you do good, that you are doing God's will. The thing is though you arent. If you do good or evil without being in fellowship with God, then it is all pointless. You could give millions to charity, but still it would be worthless if it wasent for the sake of the lord and doing his will.

So Adam and Eve were not really knowledgable of any sort of independant act (good or evil). When they ate of the fruit, the fruit itself was just a sign of their independance from God. So in a way nema you are correct. They searched for knowledge all their own, not for the will of God. They wanted to be like gods themselves, deliniating from good and evil, which is a very very profound idea.

Lots of people may laugh at that, or think we christians (who believe this doctern I am talking about, because not all do) are simpletons who have no intellect at all. That isnt it at all. We simply want to do God's will, and that is all. If you do anything else outside his will then you are doing evil.

In the hebrew, it doesnt say "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". It translates to "the tree of the knowledge of good, even evil". See, outside of Gods will, all is vain and therefore evil.

I am just stating my docternal ideas, and not trying to force opinion on anybody else, just trying to clarify for those who dont fully understand to see what mine and many other people's docterns mean.

hey ! no you arent too late ... always good to share your ideas!

[Cyborg]

It made people understand that sin causes death

Not that it was causing other, often innocent creatures' death...

I really think God should've chosen another preferred method of repenting.

In the ten commandments, you're told not to kill. Only humans, taken for granted.

So why should killing Jesus, breaking one of the most sacred of the commandments, bring so much good?

And to you, TMA, your view on Adam and Eve was good.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

sorry, this is to answer the original thing which started this debate...

adam didn't sin because he was after the knowledge.  the problem was he wanted to become like god. 

Genesis 3

5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

that was the problem.  it didn't matter about the knowledge, it was the fact that once we had it into our heads that we could control our own destiny, we were f**ked.

[Anathema]

Just a thought, what if the apple was just any ordinary apple? The fact that they plucked the fruit was in itself an act of disobedience in itself, so you can't really say that the ability to sin came from eating the apple.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

yeah, it's one of those things that really makes me feel the creation story was meant to be analogy.  can't see how all that sin can be loaded into one little apple.  and the fact that god would put it there in the first place....hmmm....save that one for another topic....

but yeah, i think it was the wrong choice that did it, not the apple.

[Wolf]

I agree with Tio on that one. First, the Genesis story can become coherent and reconciliable with science if it goes into analogy form. Second, what about the apple? It probably was an apple; it was forbidden only because God declared it forbidden. His word should have been law. Yet, this doesn't explain why Adam and Eve then figured out that they were naked and were ashamed. Unless the act of disobedience created shame, it was simply God's will for them to know everything. Sort of like this;

Don't eat the apple. Live in peaceful ignorance.

Eat the apple. Know everything about the world, good or ill.

[Cyborg]

But at the same time he said, if you eat the apple, I will kick you out, and you will rot on Earth.

However, if you don't eat the apple, you may stay here and continue your tedious life forever.

[Digital Guerrilla]

I agree about Genesis being an analogy. The only thing I disagree about is the namimg of the forbidden fruit, it wasn't an apple.

[Cyborg]

Well, as the Bible is rather allegorical, I fail to see why this part shouldn't be...

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Don't eat the apple. Live in peaceful ignorance.

Eat the apple. Know everything about the world, good or ill.

i can't see why some people whinge about this, when really, like all of god's rules, they seem annoying but actually end up doing us quite a lot of good and spare us harm.  seeing as the fall of man story seems to suggest how our "inspired choice" and "search for knowledge" f**ked up existence till judgement day.

another reason for creation story in genesis being an analogy:

are 2nd millennial BC jews REALLY going to understand the finer points of the big bang and evolutionary theory?  no.  analogy?  yes.

i'm a christian, and personally i get annoyed when genesis 1-3 is taken literally.  god could easily have invented the processes of evolution and the big bang just as he could have made it all appear out of nothing.  he's all powerful.  and the main points i get out of the creation story is not "god made everything in 7 days flat and then a talking snake came along and suggested we eat an apple and we became sinful."  when i read it, all i see is "god made us and everything else. he designed us for a relationship with him.  we at some point decided that we could do it better ourselves.  we messed up and there was a consequence."

[GUNWOUNDS]

i can't see why some people whinge about this, when really, like all of god's rules, they seem annoying but actually end up doing us quite a lot of good and spare us harm.

[Ninja_Sher]

Don't eat the apple. Live in peaceful ignorance.

Eat the apple. Know everything about the world, good or ill.

Well God called upon us to go for knowledge but God already given enough knowledge about the earthly fruit apple and catuioned them ( Adam and Eve ) not to eat it but they were ignorant of God's advice and became earthly by eating the apple and had to leave the heaven. So you see going for knowledge is not evil but doing the mistake while knowing it would be mistake is evil. Perhaps they wanted to know how does it feel to be a sinner ( God forgive me if I am wrong ).

[GUNWOUNDS]

hey i read your sig where it says "why no ninjas in Dune?"  and i just wanted to say that fremen are kinda ninja-like.

[Ninja_Sher]

hey i read your sig where it says "why no ninjas in Dune?"  and i just wanted to say that fremen are kinda ninja-like.

Yes they are and that is why I came back to the Dune world ( seeing the Fedaykin Fremen in action of EBFD, the Sardaukar are Ninja-like in many cases as well ). But still there could have been a Japanese or a Chinese house survived to provide the game with real Ninjas.

np : Sorry mods for the offtopic discussion.