Bible verses

[Anathema]

At first I wanted to post this in the marxism thread but I figured it deserves it's own topic. Stumbling across quotes like these I wondered how christians could possibly defend capitalism.

Luke 6:20

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

James 2:5

Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him?

James 5:1

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you.

Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten.

Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days.

Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.

You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.

(By the way, as the title implies this is meant to be about bible verses in general, so feel free to bring up others)

[EWS]

There was one that I used to know off by heart that talked about how the devil was not as evil as first seemed and that if he was to change his ways God would welcome him back.  It showed how everyone deserved a chance to find the "right way" as seemed.  Can anyone help me out with this one?

[Caid Ivik]

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, ho called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.  Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord

[Wolf]

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" struck me as being something that Christians don't always seem to follow, but should at all times. I do not know the exact verse, but I believe that it was Jesus Christ who spoke the words.

About Christianity & capitalism; I think that's why Edric's a Christian -- I think he once said that Christianity was some of the earliest teachings of what is, essentially, communist thought. Or something to that effect. Also, I remember speaking with my father once, and he told me about how the early church, immediately following Jesus' death, operated exactly like a communist society. Everyone shared what they had, from each according to ability, to each according to need. I suppose, so soon after Jesus' death, the full impact of his teachings remained on his followers.

[Caid Ivik]

All Jesus' direct followers became priests. Of course that small churches they've created had respected principles of solidarity, we can't talk about communism - a materialistic philosophy which sees a salvation in ballanced redistribution of economical production. It's something extremely opposite.

[Acriku]

This is why I'm confused as to all the rich Christian evangelists.

[GUNWOUNDS]

yes christianity promotes socialism more than anything else ..... not only that but the ancient Hebrews denounced lending money at interest.... (called usury).... however today that is what we base our entire economy on.

The only reasons i think christians promote capitalism now i because

[danielsh]

Socialism doesn't require Christianity.

Edit: That having been said, here's an example of a Bible verse I like.

Acts 2:44--45: "All the believers were together and had everything in common.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Socialism doesn't require Christianity.

Acts 2:44--45: "All the believers were together and had everything in common.

[danielsh]

on a global scale with 6 billion people..... yes you do.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I wasn't trying to support a point---my statement and the Bible verse that I like were completely separate.

[danielsh]

*shrug* The way to achieve ultimate stability would be to fully indoctrinate everyone

[Acriku]

Christianity can demand all it wants GUNWOUNDS, but you still have hundreds of denominations that fight even amongst each other.

Also, even if there is a working model of capitalism today, if the Bible commands socialism, then that's what Christians should follow. The Bible can't be wrong, so why aren't Christians by the millions going out and becoming socialists and giving their riches to the poor? Because they are not complete believers, and their greed has given them the easy way of living life.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Are you not, yourself, a Christian Republican?

yes but i fully understand the type of Utopia a Socialist state could produce.. however Man is far from such unity therefore a mixed economy will have to suffice for now... and my political affiliation is Republican because it more closely mirrors christianity in its platform..... (anti-abortion, non-gay, etc)  therefore republican actually makes more sense for me as a christian...

However i understand that republicans are more capitalistic than the Bible would probably like ... but as wolfwiz said .... a reasonable man does not let partisanship blind him.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Because they are not complete believers, and their greed has given them the easy way of living life.

i guess you missed my comment in parentheses in my post.. go look and see if you can find it.

[Acriku]

Yes I saw that, but if God demands it, Christians all around the world should atleast be striving for it. Conservative Christians in politics today despise anything remotely socialist, such as free healthcare. Keeping our government from becoming more socialist is definitely not what Christians should be doing if they are to do what God says so.

[sneezer3]

Christianity can demand all it wants GUNWOUNDS, but you still have hundreds of denominations that fight even amongst each other.

Might I remind you that if Evolution is followed and followed Rightly. You can have Billions killed? Look at Hitler. He killed Millions killed under Evolution. And he had them killed rightly. The evolutionest has to discrimenate. And also discrimenate agienst Blacks.

Secondly I also remind you that even if Christians din't strive for it, it wouldn't invalidate the arguement of Christanty any. I admit the Church is a sorry excuse for being Christian. But they follow the Bible wrongly. Hitler followed evolution rightly.

And thirdly diffrant denominations Might not be Christian. A Christian is a saved person. Since salvation is relative to the Denomination. They might not be Chirstian. In other words, there are lots of Christianties.

[sneezer3]

Luke 6:20

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

James 2:5

Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him?

James 5:1

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you.

Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten.

Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days.

Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.

You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.

There isn't anything wrong with being rich. These verses simply imply that its hardier for a rich man to be saved. Which it is.

[sneezer3]

Socialism doesn't require Christianity.

Acts 2:44--45: "All the believers were together and had everything in common.

[danielsh]

however Man is far from such unity therefore a mixed economy will have to suffice for now...

I'm not sure I understand the necessity of unity in this scenario.  Not everyone was satisfied with a graduated income tax, but people paid it.  Not everyone was satisfied with a minimum wage, but people paid it.  Not everyone was satisfied with child labor laws, but people adhered to them.  The mixed economy was incredibly controversial for awhile, but those who didn't like the laws still followed them.  If enough people fight for what is right, then it will come about.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm not sure I understand the necessity of unity in this scenario.

[Wolf]

Perhaps, two millenia ago, spreading a global religion was the best way to achieve the sort of utopa modern liberal-thinkers dream of. However, in the modern world, not nearly enough people follow the core tenets of Christianity, and other religions, too -- making their evangelism a risky venture. Further, modern governments are striving to provide all individuals with freedom of belief. We would have to work against most modern governments in order to achieve such a thing. Also, you cannot command the belief of others, unless they want to believe you. Perhaps they can command their own belief, but history has shown that this rarely occurs at the insistence of others.

Christianity is better left as a religion that people are free to believe in -- and, if it's teachings are right, we implement them in government, but in a secular manner that does not violate the freedom of belief of non-Christians.

And Gunwounds, trust me, you're 100% right about the two major parties in America. What they do they do not for conviction on issues, they do for partisan gain.

*The above Edit was to correct typos.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Perhaps, two millenia ago, spreading a global religion was the best way to achieve the sort of utopa modern liberal-thinkers dream of. However, in the modern world, not nearly enough people follow the core tenets of Christianity, and other religions, too -- making their evangelism a risky venture. Further, modern governments are striving to provide all individuals with freedom of belief. We would have to work against most modern governments in order to achieve such a thing. Also, you cannot command the belief of others, unless they want to belief you. Perhaps they can command their own belief, but history has shown that this rarely occurs at the insistence of others.

Christianity is better left as a religion that people are free to believe in -- and, if it's teachings are right, we implement them in government, but in a secular manner that does not violate the freedom of belief of non-Christians.

And Gunwounds, trust me, you're 100% right about the two major parties in America. What they do they do not for conviction on issues, they do for partisan gain.

i think this answers acriku's question of why christians have a hard time trying to move towards socialism......because in order to do that we would have to violate alot of people's freedom.

[danielsh]

Socialism doesn't violate freedom, it protects freedom. (But I'm not the best person to explain this.)

And I would argue that most of the politicians trying to roll back the New Deal, or the early 20th century's labor reforms, are acting out of desire for (as Matt said) "partisan gain," not on behalf of the majority of Americans.

[Wolf]

I thought that it was the middle class that was in the majority?