God, Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Free Will

[Acriku]

I'm wondering why God cannot create a perfect being with free will? Can he remove evil from its very existence and have us choose freely among the remaining choices? If evil didn't exist, then it can't be limiting our free will.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I'm wondering why God cannot create a perfect being with free will? Can he remove evil from its very existence and have us choose freely among the remaining choices? If evil didn't exist, then it can't be limiting our free will.

Well Revelations say that there will be perfect beings with free will and that evil will no longer exist.

So the question is not  "why doesnt god make perfect beings with free will"

But rather....  "Why then and not now"

[Caid Ivik]

That's a nonsense. We are already perfect, ability to see a difference between good and evil is in us just because we were given the law from God. You can't erase hypothetical negation and if you would force it to not be done, your creation wouldn't be truly free in its world. And our free will is what makes us perfect.

Simply you people are greedy beings and want more.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You can't erase hypothetical negation

Very good point...if i understand you correctly you are saying that even in a perfect utopia there will always be the hypothetical chance of evil occuring....  hypothetical negation will always exist...

But Caid..... what is the difference between NOW..... and the Utopia that will exist after Revelations ?

just curious on your thoughts about that

:)

[nemafakei]

Perfect (good) beings have few choices: they must always choose options for which the greatest good will be served, and those options are distinuished only by the choice between parameters irrelevant to the wellbeing of others.

[Caid Ivik]

What I try to say is that we were created by the best possible way. There is nothing better in the world, qualitatively more advanced, than human. It's our capability to upgrade ourselves, to continue God's will to create and fulfill His law, altough we have more choices. We are perfect, because we can be better. In comparement, any soulless creature, animal or plant, is just a blindpunkt.

Revelation can't be fitted to this view. It's not a thing of human, we will have no deed on God's return. It will be end of philosophy and theology, so we can talk only about what is before it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

What I try to say is that we were created by the best possible way. There is nothing better in the world, qualitatively more advanced, than human. It's our capability to upgrade ourselves, to continue God's will to create and fulfill His law, altough we have more choices. We are perfect, because we can be better. In comparement, any soulless creature, animal or plant, is just a blindpunkt.

Revelation can't be fitted to this view. It's not a thing of human, we will have no deed on God's return. It will be end of philosophy and theology, so we can talk only about what is before it.

You spoke about "upgrades"...

[Caid Ivik]

With "upgrade" I mean personal entwicklung, improvement of each individual based on his own will. Not upgrading of whole mankind, what is a nonsense in my view, like preached by hegelians, communists, sociologists and other such hordes. After the end of the world, it will be an end of need to be upgraded. However, that's just my speculation. What is after I can't say, and John haven't said much about it as well.

[nemafakei]

"We are perfect, because we can be better"

Caid, that's pretty much the definition of imperfect.

[Caid Ivik]

Depends on the view. We are able to redefine perfection to a higher level. Of course, if we talk about this world, on metaphysical sphere it's something else.

[emprworm]

My turn to chime in on this great discussion (I hope I dont ruin it).

1.  God is omniscient.  This means He knows everything.  It is not possible to surprise God.  It is not possible for a human to do something and God say "wow, that I wasn't expecting".  This would mean God would know something today that he didn't know yesterday.  But if God can know more today than he did yeserday, then God is learning, hence His knowledge is LIMITED.

But God's knowledge is UNLIMITED (infinte) therefore God must know every action committed by every entity in the universe, both in the past, and in the future.  Yet humans have freewill.  Hence our problem.

2.  God has designed a universe that allows for and contains random events.  This would imply that perhaps God has made a sovereign choice not to access his knowledge of the future.  Imagine a hard drive that contains all the data of your family history.  You have full access to this harddrive- hence full access to all the knowledge.  But instead, you choose not to access it to acheive another purpose.  Clearly we see with the doctrine of incarnation that God limited HImself, so we know God has this ability.  Perhaps the truth is both a bit of what Edric says, and of what Nema says.  This being that God has the ABILITY to fully know every action that every human will ever make, but CHOOSES not to access it.  The very nature of human free-will may mean that God chose to temporarily limit himself in order to grant free-will to humans.

Yet at any time, God can simply "access the hard drive" and know fully what one will do (consider that Jesus knew in advance Judas's betrayal.  This is the same concept)

[TMA_1]

yeah sorry caid I will have to agree with nema there, that was more of a statement about imperfection trying to attain perfection than an already perfect creature.

[Caid Ivik]

But we are still perfect. We are created as good as it could be done. Doing good deeds is nothing else than just fulfilling the creation process.

[Cyborg]

But we are still perfect. We are created as good as it could be done. Doing good deeds is nothing else than just fulfilling the creation process.

What makes us perfect then?

By your way of thinking everything is perfect.

[Caid Ivik]

An animal can't do a good deed. It can't improve itself. And yet, human is superior to any other thing not only spiritually, but even materially.

[nemafakei]

"This being that God has the ABILITY to fully know every action that every human will ever make, but CHOOSES not to access it"

But by choosing not to access it, he knows he is allowing for the possibility for wars, genocides, etc., wherever and whenever he prevents himself from knowing about events. Thus, God is being seriously negligent. He has the choice: Let them do whatever chance dictates (note not really free will, because it's still determined, he just doesn't know) or ensure that whay they choose to do is good. God knows there is the possibility of evil if he creates us in a random fashion, but if we are created better, we are such that we choose to do no evil.

[Edric O]

Indeed. And this is precisely the problem that my theory avoids. I believe God knows all the possible futures, but He does not know which of those possible futures will become reality. The knowledge of the future is not merely knowledge that God chooses not to access; it is knowledge that does not exist. The only future that God can be certain of is the future that He creates - such as in the case of prophecies.

[Wolf]

I think that is also a problem Frank Herbert explored in Dune. Did not Paul know all possible futures? Remember, he was not surprised at how anything played out, since each future was forever burned into his Mentat-memory. Without eyes, he could see, etc., etc., etc...

Therefore, would God not be surprised at which future becomes reality, since He knows all of them to begin with? Basically, I'm asking if the fact that He does not know which future will become reality is that important of a distinction...

[Caid Ivik]

Paul is a typical showing of what we can't understand. He wasn't choosing a future, he simply looked at world as it is, an sich, with whole timeline in one point. God has a very similar view, we can say. For He, nothing "becomes" reality, everything still simply "is". Time-bound terms (become, begin, exist, create, change...) have no meaning in the metaphysical sphere.

[emprworm]

Indeed. And this is precisely the problem that my theory avoids. I believe God knows all the possible futures, but He does not know which of those possible futures will become reality. The knowledge of the future is not merely knowledge that God chooses not to access; it is knowledge that does not exist. The only future that God can be certain of is the future that He creates - such as in the case of prophecies.

to state that God does not know what humans will decide is to state that God is constantly learning, hence God tomorrow will know more than God today.

[Anathema]

Thanks for clarifying that emp, but if what you're saying is true, then how could Moses change God's mind about doing away with the people of Israel? How could God regret making Saul king? How could God be suddenly enraged when Israel strayed from him over and over again, if he always knew it would happen?

[Edric O]

Next, time to humans is linear.  Edrics view of god is a confining one.  Edrico makes god subject to, and beneath, time.  God is greater than, and independent of, linear time.  No event that happens on the line of linear time surprises God.  No event on the line of linear time is invisible.  God does not necessarily exist in the same time-space as we do.

God is not confined to linear time.  TO shove god into a time-box and define god as one who is enslaved to linear time is also to define a contingent, finite god.

You make a good point, and I tend to agree with you, but it needs to be refined a little:

Given that God is an atemporal being (and therefore not subject to linear time), He cannot be said to "know the future" in the same way a human being would "know the future". From God's point of view, there is no difference between the past, present and future. Or, to put it another way, God sees the Universe as a complex 4-dimensional structure. The beginning of the Universe is at one end of the structure, while the end of the Universe is on the other side.

Of course, all of that assumes we live in a deterministic Universe, which is something that may or may not be true. If our Universe is not deterministic, then God's point of view would be something like a combination between my theory and Emprworm's. The Universe wouldn't be just a 4-dimensional structure, but an infinite 4-dimensional structure. And our timeline would be a 3-dimensional "plane" within that structure.

This brings up an interesting possibility: What if your reality isn't the only reality in existence? God could be interacting with an infinity of different versions of our Universe - not to mention any other Universes that He may have created.

Oh, and as a side note, Emprworm, he's a short lesson in polite conversation: Stop talking about other people as if you can read their minds (e.g. "Edric says this, Edric's idea is like that"). It makes you sound like you're putting words in the other person's mouth - even in the rare instances when that's not actually the case - and it is extremely irritating.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I don't know why this universe should be only 4-dimensional  ;D

[emprworm]

Given that God is an atemporal being (and therefore not subject to linear time), He cannot be said to "know the future" in the same way a human being would "know the future". From God's point of view, there is no difference between the past, present and future. Or, to put it another way, God sees the Universe as a complex 4-dimensional structure. The beginning of the Universe is at one end of the structure, while the end of the Universe is on the other side.

.

now this is sounding more like something that could be the answer.

[nemafakei]

I've also been working with that sort of definition as your best case scenario... thankyou for that accurate descripton.