Mother Superior

[Scott]

I was just thinking the other day whether or not the position of Mother Superior in the Bene Gesserit sisterhood was formed after the rule of Muad'Dib or did the position already exist at that time? From the first few novels I can't remember the position being mentioned, I just assumed that the sisterhood practiced an almost 'congressional' form of leadership and there was no single entity at the top of the power structure.

Does anyone know if this was mentioned in the first few novels at all? I know it was in the prequels but I really don't consider anything from those novels as fact.

[Dante]

I can't remeber if it was mentioned specifically, but it would seem more appropriate not to mention it in the earlier books as at the time the Bene Gesserit were more shadowy and secretive. Much, or even most of what we know of them comes from Heretics and Chapterhouse, so it makes sense that their positions would not be revealed until then.

Besides which, it's always sensible not to let anyone know how you work. I think even those around at the time during the early Dune books (the Landsraad, Guild, Emperor) wouldn't know how the Bene Gesserit worked; and since we don't get a BG POV until Heretics (as far as I can remember) we don't know about them because nobody else does.

[Andrew]

That may be true. Mother Superior is not in the Dune index, but

PROCTOR SUPERIOR: a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother who is also regional director of a B.G. school. (Commonly: Bene Gesserit with the Sight.)

Buyt yes Frank eithor didnt want to reveal some secrets about factions early in the books, invented them later, or after Maud'dib they were created.

[Mahdi]

I think it was just never revealed until later in the books.

What I always wondered about the Bene Gesserit is when and why becoming a Reverend Mother, which in the time fo the first three Dune books was an incredibly rare and special thing, is so common that every Bee Gesserit is expected to do it.

[Dante]

I think it's mentioned somewhere in Heretics or Chapterhouse by either Odrade or Taraza that in order to function in a different enviroment, away from the 'tripod' system, the Bene Gesserit needed more Reverend Mothers. Thus acolytes that would normally not have undergone the spice agony would be more likely to face it.

*Sigh* It really is about time I read them again, my memory is just awful...

[Mahdi]

I think it's mentioned somewhere in Heretics or Chapterhouse by either Odrade or Taraza that in order to function in a different enviroment, away from the 'tripod' system, the Bene Gesserit needed more Reverend Mothers. Thus acolytes that would normally not have undergone the spice agony would be more likely to face it.

*Sigh* It really is about time I read them again, my memory is just awful...

The way I remember it they were jsut stepping up the spice agonies for students, giving it to them earlier and earlier.  It still seemed to me that what was once a unique and unusual position was given to every single Bene Gesserit when they became trained well enough, and then it was only students who hadn't undergone it.

[Andrew]

In heretics and Chapterhouse they were being exterminated. So they were giving it to them younger and younger because they needed more Mothers. I thought spice was scarce (or at least very expensive?)

I need to reread the books also.

[AeonGrey]

I'm actually not so sure the BG used spice in the first Dune book for their "ordeals" or "agonies" or whatever you wanna call it.  The scene that is coming to mind is the scene in which Jessica is undergoing the Fremen ritual to become one of their version of a Reverend Mother.  As she is being fed the water of life, she really has no clue what it is and what is about to happen till the last second.  When she mentions (internally) the way the "official" Bene Gesserit do it, it sounds like they use different drugs/poisons to do it and not necessarily spice.  I think the whole "water of life" thing was maybe a Fremen secret at that time.

[nemafakei]

There is the possibility of an illusion being created, due to the fact that FH rarely mentioned the majority of the populaces at large. Hence the minor BGs could be far greater in number than the reverend mothers, but we wouldn't know about them.

[Vanguard3000]

Aeongrey, I agree with you.  I always had the impression the Bene Gesserit could transmute almost any poison, and there were many poisons that were sufficiently... poisonous to be used in the Agony.

I don't believe the Mother Superior was ever mentioned before Heretics, but as Mahdi and others said, it simply wasn't relevant enough to mention, not to mention the factt hat they were a very clandestine order.  It's even possible very few Bene Gesserit ever saw or communicated directly with the Mother Superior.

[Scott]

I'm actually not so sure the BG used spice in the first Dune book for their "ordeals" or "agonies" or whatever you wanna call it.  The scene that is coming to mind is the scene in which Jessica is undergoing the Fremen ritual to become one of their version of a Reverend Mother.  As she is being fed the water of life, she really has no clue what it is and what is about to happen till the last second.  When she mentions (internally) the way the "official" Bene Gesserit do it, it sounds like they use different drugs/poisons to do it and not necessarily spice.  I think the whole "water of life" thing was maybe a Fremen secret at that time.

I don't think its ever specified really what the Bene Gesserit use in the agony but it is some sort of illuminating poison that they must injest and alter, thereby altering themselves. Jessica knew that she was not transformed into a RM by the Fremen in the same way the BG transformed their sisters into RMs, although she had never been made privy to that information. The Water of Life ritual was a sacred act to the Fremen, as it converted the poison into a narcotic which the Fremen consumed prior to the orgy. I agree with Aeon in that its more of a Fremen ritual and not so much BG.

I don't believe the Mother Superior was ever mentioned before Heretics, but as Mahdi and others said, it simply wasn't relevant enough to mention, not to mention the factt hat they were a very clandestine order.  It's even possible very few Bene Gesserit ever saw or communicated directly with the Mother Superior.

To me, It'd be just as relevant to mention the Mother Superior in the first few novels as it would be in the later novels. I agree that Heretics and Chapterhouse have alluded to far more as to the inner workings of the sisterhood than Dune, Messiah or Children, but those first three books still gave somewhat of an idea as to what was going on inside the BG system. We were made aware of the gom jabbar, the agony, the kwisatz haderach, the breeding system and their mistresses, proctors, the schools, the teachings, the physical aspects, the missionaria protectiva, truthsayers, truth trance, inner memories and so on, so its not as if Frank was vague on the aspects of the sisterhood before Heretics. Despite the fact they were a clandestine order, in Heretics and Chapterhouse, the MS is seen walking in mingling among lower level functionaries aswell as those of higher importance, so why would she be made to seem like she doesn't exist, in the earlier books? Or made though no one has even seen her? It wouldn't seem to me a matter of something like security, since all the sisters are tightly bound together in their almost 'coven' together. So tightly infact, that their loyalty is what keeps the entire sisterhood intact for thousands of years. There is a Bene Gesserit POV from Mohiam, Irulan and Jessica in the early novel, so why isn't this touched on?

Honestly, I could accept the fact that Frank invented the position later on if that was the case, but what I can't accept is that it was actually held during the period of Muad'Dib and previous.

[nemafakei]

Organisations change. During the time of the imperial court, the BG had to be a clandestine order. Thousands of years later, after the BG have become an overt player rather than a parasitic organisation, it's unsurprising that the role and status of the Mother Superior is different.

[Scott]

True, still you would think that in times of relative peace, such as during the period in which the original Dune takes place, the BG would not have to be as careful in the concealment of their leaders as say the period during Heretics were the Bene Gesserit were being hunted down and exterminated by the Honored Matres. Why would the Mother Superior be more concealed in a time were the danger to her was very little, compared to a time were the danger to her was very great?

It is true that some organizations change over time but some do not, one being the system of faufreluches that the Imperium abided by for thousands of years before the times of the Famine and the Scattering. To me, its seemed that the Bene Gesserit and other factions like the Bene Tleilax changed little over time, although they assume larger roles.

[Vanguard3000]

Keep in mind that, in Heretics and Chapterhouse, the Mother Superior is one of the main characters; in the earlier novels, she wasn't.  What's the point of mentioning her in the first novels, if they're not really going to have anything to do with her?  And as Nema said, as times changed, so did the BG adapt to a more overt, military role, as opposed to a highly secretive order.

And as far as the Honoured Matres were concerned, the MS was about as well concealed as she ever would have been.  Remember that the HMs could raze entire planets, and planned to do so to planet Chapterhouse, with their weapon.  Chapterhouse itself was hidden from them, while in the originals, the BG really didn't need such a secret hideout.  Wallach IX (assuming it was the chief headquarters of the BG) was protected by the Guild (that is, opposed to the later novels, when foldspace transportation had no restriction at all).

[Scott]

Keep in mind that, in Heretics and Chapterhouse, the Mother Superior is one of the main characters; in the earlier novels, she wasn't.

[Andrew]

There are very few societies with no central leader(s). And those societies usually consist of a population of less than 1000.

I believe there would have to be a central person or persons at the head of Bene Gesserit at the time of Maud'Dib. Althought the structure of the Bene Gesserti may not have been the same as in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The Reverend Mothers on each planet may have acted independant, but they would have to report to someone offworld where they would collect all the information and make decisions interworld decisions.

[nemafakei]

I would imagine a sisterhood during imperial times having a mother superior with an administrative role. Besides, why do we need to know about the internal workings of the BG? Even if they had a leader, surely they would benefit more from not telling about them - and there would be many others more capable of acting as spokesmen.