Yueh, an accidental hero?

[TMA_1]

We usually all think that yueh is the primary source of the downfall of Atreides. This isnt the case though in my opinion. House Atreides would have fallen no matter what. The imperial house and house harkonnen were already plotting, and would no doubt have found ways to destroy the atreides with the power they had. I can only think of one safty. If yuek wasent the person who was the traitor, maybe the atreides could have had enough time to assemble the fremen, but I doubt this, I think that yueh was just the guy that was best to be the traitor, but as I said no matter what I think the atreides were trapped, and without a way to survive as their pure house. You can argue with me, and I welcome it, but think of it, you had the guild, house corrino, and harkonnen backing up the attack, with the sardaukar and the fact that the fremen couldnt be assembled in time. So I think that yueh didnt really effect anything, just was the tool used in this plot.

Now why he could be an accidental hero. He knew that house atreides would fall, seeing what was against it when he signed in to this evil business, and in his own hatred and selfishness thought that he could take advantage of all of this. Because of this, he was able to create a last striking blow.

so since the atreides were pretty much doomed from the onset, the fact that yueh had a chance to attack those who instigated this tretchery, this gave a positive to a situation that only gave negatives. Without yueh being the traitor, nothing would have been done, so yueh in his selfishness actually gave the atreides to fight back once in for all against the attack they only knew was going to happen, with nothing to do in return.

The attack that yueh planned against baron vladimir didnt succeed, but he killed piter. Most people just push this off as nothing really important. hello!!!??

Piter was a genius, and the fact that the duke killed him killed off one man that could have (in his own greed for arrakis, and his own sadistic genius) made it possible to actually change things for the baron and the situation at hand in the comming years. Things would probably have resulted differently, or paul would have had to do things in a much more difficult fashion. There is even talk that piter was going to infiltrate the seitch tribes and that could have lead to paul's, or other important people's deaths.

Because of yueh's selfishness something was done! the death of piter obviously effected the outcome of what happened on arrakis. Even if it was just a little help, it was something. Yueh not only did this but helped save paul and jessica, and if any other person was chosen for being the traitor, paul and jessica would undoubtedly be killed.

an accidental hero? I think so.

(Sorry if I have written this wrong, I am feeling really sick tonight and my mind isnt up to snuff, so if it is hard to understand please ask questions, I hope you guys understand this idea I have. tell me what you think!)

[GhostHunter]

  The Atreides were far from dead by any standards. If the Harkonnen's didn't have such a reliable inside attacker as Yueh then the planning of a direct onslaught against Atreides forces would take a longer amount of time. It is with time that the then-closing Atreides-Fremen relationship would of translated into legions upon endless legions of Desert Warrior's swarming the ranks along side their Atreides comrades; screaming battle cries.

  However, if they say, had attacked despite this, and at the same time it would of been a far more reliable case of the Emperor's betrayal and with direct evidence against the Emperor who attacked the ATREIDES, I doubt the life expectancy of Shaddam would of been limited to how long it took to get massive attacking fleets over Kiatan.

  Yueh was no hero; he was a man who was in love with his wife. Not saying that

[Egeides]

First, I will mention that making "if" sentences is a bit risky, just as predicting the future. But anyway, we can look at what the problem in terms of probabilities and possibilities.

But mainly, I'm interested in this view of the Atreides as doomed to fall:

In history, we rarely see anything changing without a whole bunch of factors, espescially when it comes to a complete fall of a faction, reign, country, and so on. I think that there is a whole context behind this, with the Harkonnens having specific strengths (money, etc.). The second possibility is when there is a specific weakness in a crucial point of the foundations, which brings the whole building to fall when it is hit.

This doesn't mean that the advantages were overwhelmingly on one side, and I'd be curious to know what brings you to conclude that the Atreides were doomed to crash (which is not only about a weakness). Both houses seem to be oriented differently, thus giving different strengths/weaknesses. To come back on Yueh, what does the survival of a dynasty bring when all what was supporting it is owned by its enemy, even when its leader is dead (and replaced by another)? A little chance to get back with a population revolt and diplomatical manneuvers perhaps.

[Andrew]

[GhostHunter]

Duncan was really close, you saw how the Fremen took liking to him and how they were revealing valuable information to the Atreides. Yes, some people wanted them dead, but Leto was by far one of the most popular and liked leaders and the Atreides were infamous, it would of ineivtably led to a Landsradd attack against the Emperor.

[NHJ BV]

I'm not convinced of the importance of Piter's death. If I recall correctly Baron Harkonnen says (thinks) in the book that Piter was becoming rebellious and dangerous to him, and that the Baron was already planning on "replacing" him anyway.

[TMA_1]

do you know how long it takes to organize an army of millions ghost? I think you do your a pretty smart guy. Not only that, they were still in the process of discussions and this takes a long long time.

to an extent I agree with you that he isnt a hero, I think I used a bad word, you pinned it. He was a guy in love.

I still think House Atreides was doomed from the start though, and dont equate the post imperium "atreides" with the original atreides. They are two different factors all together.

The atreides just didnt have enough time to face an attack of that sorts. The amount of (secret) support behind the atreides downfall was high. I mean, if the guild is behind it, you can pretty much mark the X on your forehead. They wanted the spice to flow and saw problems coming ahead in the future, but as nema perfectly said in the q & a section of the duniverse thread, they cannot see possible outcomes of the spice and their own guild, and paul was actually manipulating the future, this worried the guild so yikes.

the sardaukar were inferior from what they once were, but dont mistake their superiority to any other large fighting force (save the fremen) in mass. There are certain sects that trained individuals better, but on a large scale the fremen were the only superiors. The sardaukar were more than capable of doing this attack, but the atreides had a strong army, and they were growing to be as powerful as the sardaukar (one of the reasons why the emperor feared Leto). They werent at that point yet, and in the end werent fully prepared for the attack. They saw it coming but just didnt have enough time.

Also, you doubt Piter's importance??? he was going to replace him AFTER the attack on arrakis. Piter was driven not only by his genius, but the desire to rule arrakis. (one of the reasons why the baron wanted him killed). The baron did NOT want piter killed before the attack and settling of the harkonnen rule on arrakis. Piter could have turned the tide. The baron was a genius as well, and knew even though he hated piter in many ways, that you dont waste talent. He knew he needed piter, and piter knew the baron needed him for the time. they as a team were to be feared through the empire, even thufir acknowledged this. Without piter though, the baron lost his right arm.

[GhostHunter]

[TMA_1]

your argument does have merit, and could be right. You seem to know the deeper politics of dune (which is righteous). I have to disagree with you on this though, and not simply to disagree but it is something that is nagging me.

The fremen were oppressed by almost every single house that were given choam contracts to mine the spice. Especially after the harkonnen they couldnt trust the governments that ruled arrakis, especially the emperor.

This fear and speculation of politics really hindered a relationship between the atreides and the fremen.

now you are totally right when Duncan became both welcome in seitch and among the atreides. this seemed to be the bond that enabled the fremen to trust Duke Leto. They were even beginning to form forces, and helping out the duke with harkonnen spies and saboteurs. Remember though that Duncan was only dealing with a few seitches, a few out of dozens and dozens. Remember in the book when it talks about how stil seemed to accept the Duke fairly well, but there were problems with other tribe naibs? It also talks about how the naibs doubted paul even when he was the messianic leader. SO what was that doubt like when paul wasent even among the fremen? Just because one or two seitches was involved at the time didnt mean that all agreed. Also paul did something that had never really been done. He unified the fremen, and took a sort of census of them. This unification took so little of time (years) to achieve because of religion. Now just give a liberal estimate of tribe unification to have the bare minimum amount of support to stave off the sardaukar and other forces. This would take at least a year or two, that is still too little time.

Now that is a liberal estimate, it is highly unlikely it would take just a year or two. Paul only succeeded doing this so quickly because of the religious fervor. Take that out and think how much time it would take to unify even a couple of seitches? it would take years! remember the quote that talks about how things are when religion mixes with politics. That things begin to grow heated, fast paced and fervent. This wouldnt have happened if it was just a political (and eventually) a friendly alliance. There would still be more time to adapt to eachothers cultures and whatnot. I just think the timescale is impossible, see waht I mean?

[GhostHunter]

  Hmm, perhaps you're right, however, excluding the rough 200,000 figure for a second (which in all wouldn't be a HUGE amount of sietches, at least not if Duncan visited them in a year or two) what if even 10,000 were there, and along with the Elite Atreides division (the elite group of men within a thin-hair of the Sardaukar) trained the Atreides militia together? Why the Atreides would end up having a Fremen fighting force of their own, loyal to them due to the original Atreides loyalty.

  Moving onto your next statement, do you not think Duncan could have mingled in some sort of Religious concepts to help aid the Atreides hand with the Fremen? I don't think he couldn't of, it would of easily assisted in the matters and I feel, based upon what I saw of Duncan (in Dune, not even bothering with the gung-hoe Duncan in the prequels) that he had the intelligence to incorporate it as such.

  And you are forgetting this, the Fremen did not trust any House, but however, they did have one unified characteristic; their hate for the Harkonnen. The Atreides could have easily said, "We appreciate your help, but we will be attacked by the Harkonnen, and we need your help. And unless you DO help us, and fight along side our men, the old Imperialistic tyranny of the Harkonnens shall be re-instituted on Arrakis, this is your chance."

[TMA_1]

very true statement about the mutual hatred, and that could speed things up. Also, if jessica could have gotten involved with the fremen while the atreides were around. Could have added on the concept of paul being the messiah from the seat they were at already. Though that is very iffy, could be, I doubt it though.

I dont think Duncan could have tapped into any religious thoughts of the fremen, their religion was complicated and dangerous to mess with, (remember with paul and jessica). It was only because of the missionaria protectiva and her intelligence that enabled her to successfully tap into the fremen religion. duncan had no idea about the religion so it would take him even longer to learn about the religion.

The only thing I could think of is if he did something on accident that sparked some sort of fremen prophesy or omen, that made duncan a religious symbol. an example of this (and I dread using it) is in the prequel House Atreides when pardot kynes is talking about changing arrakis and somebody is told to kill him but he kills himself instaed, this creates a mystique about pardot, and people look at him as a prophet afterwords.

I think that it MIGHT have been possible if they recruited enough fremen to fight against the attack of the emperor (like you said, in the thousands). This would create a stir among the other fremen who would wish to fight with the few that are in the aid of the atreides, (which also might bring about a holy war of the fremen, since they see the harkonnen being attacked by another great house with fremen). If the atreides with the remnant of fremen were capable in doing some success, the other naibs might have joined and would take advantage of the situation. That is the only possiblity I see, I doubt this though. Could have happened, still even if it was possible dont think there was enough time.

[GhostHunter]

To get a few Fremen, then get a few more, and train the Atreides the way Paul did, along with the Elite Atreides group? I doubt there wouldn't be enough time...

(And it's sort of hard to argue with you if you take my side...).

[TMA_1]

hmm, then lets agree to disagree. you do bring up some good points.

also vnaguard where are you man? your opinion here would be great, also everybody else too.lol

[Andrew]

Ok, so we are debating if Yueh did not become a traiter, would the Atriedes have enough time to defend against the Harkonnen and Sardaukar?

It would depend on the timeframe the Atreides had to mount defenses, and whether or not they knew an attack was immenint. (ie, they thought they would be attacking withing a month or so... not guessing that some people didnt like them. :P)

So,

I would think that the Atreides would have fallen within 6 months of the yueh incident (if it did not occur).

Also it would depend if the entire Atreides government/military installations were moved to secret Sietches, away from attacks. (and Fremen accepting them)

But then if the Guild were serious enough about the Paul threat, they could have sent many houses to Arrakis along with Harkonnen and Sardaukar and would say that the Atreides and Fremen were a threat to Spice. (which they would have been).

So many houses against Dune/Atreides planets would have lost. :P (atreides downfall/Fremen)

Of course if Paul still became a Messiah would complicate the outcome much more, and if he would still threated to kill off the worms.

Paul in the books had the element of surprise, they built up thier forces secretly on Dune while the Harkonnen ignored them mostly because they did not think they were a threat. And Corrino acted to late to "save" Arrakis.

[GhostHunter]

I have to head off to the dentist, I'll post when I get back.

[TMA_1]

righteous, you are actually a good man to spar with concerning Dune.

now with you andrew, bwah ha.lol

anyways isnt it hard to put a time scale on that kind of thing?

Also if I remember right, the baron actually didnt see the fremen as a threat, but ironically rabban did. weird isnt it?

if piter would have survived I think he could have done some damage in infiltration. said that he might have gotten away with it too. wonder if he did actually do it.

[Dunenewt]

Hmm I disagree with the Piter thing because another Piter could just be bought from the Tleilaxu.

[TMA_1]

dont you remember? the piters arent always the same, and it is not only costly to get a new mentat it is hard, and it is hard to rebuild allthe things it has learned.

[Vanguard3000]

The Piter-Ghola thing was only from the prequels.  Besides, no one knew memories could be "unlocked" like what had happened to Hayt.

Anyway, Ghost said Yueh was being greedy.

[GhostHunter]

  Preciously, he wished to save his wife, ONE person, he did this by bringing an end to a Great House, the end of the Atreides which had dire consequences so great not only to the Atreides populace and the House, but to the Imperium in general, that one life was completely irrelevant.

  The Emperor was not ready for a direct attack against the Atreides, aka

[Vanguard3000]

keep in mind that, at the attack on Palace Arrakeen, Paul had not yet trained the Fremen.  And it was Yueh who helped them escape into the desert and survive there until the Fremen found them.  If Yueh had not betrayed the Atreides, the Ducal family most likely would have fled back to Caladan (which, by the way, was under control of Count Fenrig - a Corrino ally who would have prevented reinforcements to Arrakis, if there were enough to make a difference anyway), or died.

And the "police action" would be against the Fremen and rebellious pyons; not the Atreides.

[TMA_1]

I agree with vanguard, up to the point of piter not being an influence. If you see how important the minds of the two (baron and piter) were, and how disabled the baron was after piter's death, you would see that this was a primer for the destruction of the harkonnen on arrakis.

vanguard said exactly what I was getting at. Only one or two seitches knew of the Duke. Now since Liet also knew, it could have been more wide spread, but overall favor would not have been high. Only stilgar and his seitch had a pact through idaho, the rest of the seitches didnt. Now take into consideration how leary the naibs of other tribes were with paul (even when he was considared messiah!). Now take the Duke, who is relatively unknown and saying nice things but with no real proof to back it up, they wouldnt trust the Duke, and it would take many years to build that trust. Not enough time to save them. I am going to use the greater to prove the lesser.

If paul the messiah couldnt fully attain trust of the whole of the naibs, how could a little known politician do so? it took paul a couple years, wouldnt it take leto even more?

I still stand by my case that ironically the tretchery of yueh lead to a plus where there could have been no gain any other way. If there was no tretchery there undoubtedly would have been no hope for the atreides, at least leto had a chance to strike a blow at the very highest of leadership.

[Andrew]

If paul the messiah couldnt fully attain trust of the whole of the naibs, how could a little known politician do so? it took paul a couple years, wouldnt it take leto even more?

I still stand by my case that ironically the tretchery of yueh lead to a plus where there could have been no gain any other way. If there was no tretchery there undoubtedly would have been no hope for the atreides, at least leto had a chance to strike a blow at the very highest of leadership.

Especially since the Duke was not a Messiah that did not fit Fremen's beliefs, and would be harder to convert into a fremen than Paul was since he was only a teenager.

And if the Corrino had killed Paul, etc, the enemies in Dune 7 would most likely destroy humans. (or whatever, there would be no god emperor, possibly no no-ships, and many other humanity altering events. oh and the jihad with Paul)

Great topic TMA ! :)

[TMA_1]

thanks andrew! I didnt think so many people would post about it. lots of good thoughts flowing.

Well, if paul died then it would have taken thousands of years (if that, not even at all) to get another kh. If that happened then there would be no transcendant wisdom great enough to understand the need to destroy stagnation. That would lead to the eventual downfall of all humanity.

[GhostHunter]

keep in mind that, at the attack on Palace Arrakeen, Paul had not yet trained the Fremen.