sexism in Dune

[TMA_1]

Frank Herbert was indeed a liberal man. Read what he writes in his many forwards from his many books. I use liberal in the ideological sense of course.

He seems to be extremely interested in matriachal thoughts and modes.

Still though in Dune, Women seem to take power roles that are largely ancient in ideas. instead of imancipating themselves (women) in the individual scale, small interest groups (bene gesserit for example) horde their power in tight knit and extremely politically tied powers. Like women did in ancient times when they knew they were second class citizens. They didnt have the benefit of being uneducated and poor. They usually had to be in the upper classes and had to be crafty and intelligent to get their way. I dare say that throughout history the geniuses were women behind the scenes, controlling the superpowers. A jewish parable mentions this in a somewhat funny way.

A king asks what influences a ruler most. Many wise men gave some thoughts on the matter.

One said it was wine, because what else could change the very mind of someone better than wine?

Another man said it was money, because nothing instills a deeper lust than cash.

Finally a man of God came to the king and told him that it was women, because the love of a woman is more powerful than any earthly force. That a king will do anything for a love of his, and that will to act and do anything is true power.

It seems that because of all this, that there was a sort of sexism and an archaic way of life in the duniverse. Why though? why would women be treated less in a universe of the far future? what was frank trying to do?

[Vanguard3000]

You have to realize that Dune takes place at a very reactionary time.  The Butlerian Jihad created a strange, steampunk level of technology.  The feudal system has made a comeback throughout the majority of the universe.  There is also mention of isolated sects of monks and whatnot.  It's no surprise that other ancient ideas came around as well.

Keep in mind, though, that in the original Dunes, we don't really see a whole lot of the universe.  Just because the Great Houses we've seen have men as leaders, doesn't mean there are no dutchesses and baronesses.

[TMA_1]

quite right.

Of course I dont have to ask you if the expansion of the Dune universe in the prequels is "trustworthy". ;)  hehe

[Leto le Juste]

Don't forget that FH wrote Dune novels with his wife Beverly. Furthermore, don't forget the power of women: they give life (excepted in the tleilax civilization...). Remember Jessica or Chani, they influenced the decisions of Leto and Paul.

So women have an important place in Duniverse

[Caid Ivik]

I wouldn't say women have (or had) some 2nd class place on the world. Look at muslim world for example, there man lives just to feed and protect his wife.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

eh, what the hell are you talking about caid? Islam is the most feared enemy of womens freedom.

and I feel dune is very influenced by the middle ages, so I don't find such a thing strange.

[Anathema]

dutchesses

Imagine a future without female Dutch people... :P

[Vanguard3000]

eh, what the hell are you talking about caid? Islam is the most feared enemy of womens freedom.

Another victim of September 11th.

You're probably thinking of Bin-Laden, Al-Queda, and other fundamentalist aspects of the religion.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Another victim of September 11th.

You're probably thinking of Bin-Laden, Al-Queda, and other fundamentalist aspects of the religion.

[Andrew]

That is their culture. Should we force our culture onto them until thier culture is gone and has become the same as ours?

In Some tribes woman marry their brothers(or several husbands) and have many other lovers. We don't think that is acceptable in our societies so should we force them to marry only one person and "love" one person?

Just because we don't think it is fit doesn't mean it is not acceptable in their culture.

(I am reffering to mostly people in their respective countries, because if they move into our country/culture, well then it is harder to keep thier culture.)

[Caid Ivik]

In fact, here you also have no freedom of wife choice, she must also love you  ::)  But muslim wives have many rights and influences our women can only dream of. Also official concubinate in Duniverse, that's a thing which would solve also many problems. I still see Dune as mirror of ancient muslim Persia...

[Leto le Juste]

yes you have probably right. Dune is a mix between "Prince of Persia", "Les Chevaliers de la Table Ronde" and "Les trois Mousquetaires". It is a mix of all the old myth of the world without forgotten the asian ones... :)

[TMA_1]

good grief guys! do you know how twisted the "islamic" religion is in the DUne universe? it isnt really islam anymore. Not only that, islam is not the only religion worshipped, in fact it is no longer worshipped in it's pure form. Not only that but religion has been largely watered down after the jihad out of fear of another religious jihad. This hasent much to do with religion, and more to do with the advancement of archaic political structures and culture within an odd advanced universe.

Also Leto, just because jessica and chani are important figures, doesnt mean women are somehow first class citizens. In fact jessica is only reveared in a religious sense, just like in ancient cultures when women were only placed in high posts for strictly religious purposes.

[nemafakei]

I agree with much of the above; FH seems to be be showing women working in a different way to men - not second class humans, but merely ones whose role in society is different, mostly stemming from the fundamental differences in anatomical capability and psyche. They may not have official power - I think the implication is that they have little desire for officiousness and hierarchy (which fits with the slight trend against 'right-handed' thinking's preonderance in women than men).

[Grallon]

...It seems that because of all this, that there was a sort of sexism and an archaic way of life in the duniverse. Why though? why would women be treated less in a universe of the far future? what was frank trying to do?

The Duniverse as presented by the original books (the prequels being irrelevant) shows us the lives of the elite mostly.  We rarely see what's going on at ground level - among the average jo-6-packs.  Who's to say this "sexism" wasn't a byproduct of the feudal system used to maintain cohesion of the Empire - and therefore limited , as a political tool, to the higher classes ?

G.

[TMA_1]

well what I meant is an example with the zensunni religion. The right hand of God and the left ahnd of GOd. The left hand of God is the handmaiden of God. I shouldnt have said second class. They just arent predominantly equals to men in many ways.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

That is their culture. Should we force our culture onto them until thier culture is gone and has become the same as ours?

eh...yes

good grief guys! do you know how twisted the "islamic" religion is in the DUne universe? it isnt really islam anymore. Not only that, islam is not the only religion worshipped, in fact it is no longer worshipped in it's pure form. Not only that but religion has been largely watered down after the jihad out of fear of another religious jihad. This hasent much to do with religion, and more to do with the advancement of archaic political structures and culture within an odd advanced universe.

we do not only have the islamic religion in the duniverse. I know that you follow the DE TMA, and therefore I would like to tell you that what I read about the OC Bible there, it seems it is influenced by christianity more than islam. The O.C. Bible is the most important book in Dune.

[TMA_1]

lol, your probably saying that because it says catholic in the title...

No, If anything the biggest influence is judeism. The rest is comprised of many eastern texts. There is much of the new testament, but also some gnostic texts in there as well.

[TMA_1]

and good grief, why are you even talking about this stuff? it has nothing to do with it, and christianity is a small plapyer in dune, how many times do people have to say that!??? lol

[Caid Ivik]

We talk about similarity of cultures, not religions. Dar al-islam undoubtly inspired Herbert's duniverse. Religion is just part of culture, we can't talk about ancient Kalifate only by what is written in Koran or about today's world trough Sartre and Heidegger...

[Egeides]

To know why the BG is how it is and how the culture with its groups is like that, we need to look at the source of the BG, and then the evolution. We could do the same for any organism (Catholic Church, etc.).

The BG came from a tumultuous time, in reaction to the machines, and in a competition for mankind's mind. So it's an ideological competition, with politics, culture and so on, a bit like institutionalized religions in general. When the BG came out, we can see that only women were taken as disciples, thus there was somethng against taking men. It means that a women/men dissociation, schism, is there (whattever the force it has). Since the BG continues to keep men out, we can guess that women are seen as different by some in the duniverse (the BG of course, but also the ones following some of the BG's ideas exactly as there was a Catholic Church and some more or less devout followers). Thus, I think that the duniverse really has a culture, in general, that shows a dichotomy between men and women.

But this doesn't meant that women are seen as inferior. Just look at the BG: it is closing its ranks only to the best elements, tries to attract the best elements, and it only keeps women. This means that some believe in the superiority of women I think. The BG seems to let explicit power to men, and to try to get real power. The BG is sending its adepts with some men with explicit power, but the BG adept isn't there to obey to the men but rather necessarily for some power beneficial to the BG...

To which extent does this affect the duniverse and its culture as a whole? To which extent is this propagated? I think it doesn't include everyone at all, and is only a conflict that is present without being everywhere. Simply seeing that men are keeping official (explicit) power says alot. From this little element, we can suspect that many believe the men really have power (including the men), everyone following their orders. Also, this simple but crucial element unveils that there apparently is a men/women conflict, represented by this competition for power between the masculine and feminine elites. Teg shows some elements about this, and we can look at the BG's method and view of man. But is the population in general implicated into this? Well the population follows the male elite (I may be wrong, but I only saw males. Anyway, there are some males). But at the same time, we know that the BG is a bit everywhere and thus brings this same conflict found in the elitist groups.

PS: I just noted something curious. In Herbert's work, except into the BG and noble courts, where are the women gone?! Herbert went very little on the rest of the society compared to the elite.

[driftingcloud]

Back to the original point of discussion by TMA-1, I don't find the evidence in the Frank Herbert novels of women as second class citizens. While he doesn't go to great lengths to give us many female heroes, there is an over-riding arc through the Bene Gesserit in the six novels. The BG begin (and have existend in for some time) at a non-involvement stance, much like the guild. They do not want to rule in a visible way, partly because they can actually weild more power from behind the throne than from the throne, and because ruling the universe is not their promary objective. One of the things they learn through the course of the six books and 4-5000 years is that they need to be more active and less passive-aggressive.

Another point of fact is that Wensicia ruled House Corrino until she could groom her son for a planned recovery the throne. For some reason we now learn that 50 years earlier it was not possible for a woman to rule anything.

In the prequels, I find the open-endedness of Franks world and possibilities pretty much negated. Women do not hold any power (but they certainly could have in Frank's series.) Women only hold power through a patriarchal system via marriage and other such alliances. This "official concubinage" crap in HA & HH is so limiting and twisting of the Bene Gesserit in such a way that they now come across as a weak and second class organization and group of people.

Frank was in one way suggesting that polygamy and love without marriage was allowable, but what we have in the prequels is a reflection of predominant western culture and law that relationships are a really a state matter, such that one needs an official concubine for it to have any meaning (although I cannot understand what political power one gains by having an concubine with a contract over one that comes of her own free will.)

The idea that culture has "reverted" to a feudal system is overly simplistic and weak. All we need do is look at our own world to see that no one culture or government process can dominate all nations. It has been attempted, with Napleon, Mussolini, Hitler, and may come to pass closer to home here in the US in the near future, but such a rule will never hold up for any length of time. To assume that many planets across a vast universe completely emmulate a feudal system and adhere to all the strictures and commandments surrounding one (which is what the prequels are attempting to say) is supreme folly.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

and good grief, why are you even talking about this stuff? it has nothing to do with it, and christianity is a small plapyer in dune, how many times do people have to say that!??? lol

you are right! Dune is more inspired by Judaism. second comes Islam and Christianity and Budism. no hinduism, right?