Arm Chair Historians

[TMA_1]

no doubt I will have a majority of you disagree, but this is how I have been taught as an amature historian.

I was taught by old school historians. The type that are extremely dry, make you read greek classics in the original greek (I had to translate them with my books), they make you read extremely dry histories and never once do they judge the past.

One thing ingrained in me was NEVER to judge cultures that I am foreign to. Also never to judge a time that isnt in the present. How can you judge something that cant be changed? that is not only arrogant but silly. It is like arguing with a brick wall.

Constantly I hear "what if" historians teach others these horrible habits of judging others. They also feed kids with opinionated historical viewpoints. one of my history teachers said once at the beginning of the quarter "By the end of this class you will grow more liberal, I promise that."

Sure there are evils in the past, cannibalism, human sacrifice, religious persicution, genocide. Are we any better though? and instead of observing and changing our ways, what does judging past mistakes do? It only enlarges our arrogance and ego. By no way is our age we live in safe from the same judgements of the future, and yet we still childishly attack the past. Sure there are evils in the past, but why not learn from them instead of attacking the "primitives" of old?

Another thing thing that bothers me are the blanket statements that historians teach kids and adults now days. one huge one is hitler attacking russia.

So many people say "hitler shouldnt have attacked russia during the winter, it was his final destruction, should have learned from napoleon".

Well if those teachers would actually teach the whole truth, they would see that hitler attacked russia in the early spring, and they forcasted a victory way before the next winter. The only thing that staved off germany for that long was stalin's reckless use of civilians to block germany.

germany did not attack russia in the winter, and nether did nepoleon for that matter!

all sorts of points you can make about this stuff, iot just gets annoying, what do you guys think?

[Dante]

He may not have attacked in Winter, but he was still pressing in during Winter. Not very bright.

[TMA_1]

you cant just leave a huge battle with many different fronts because it is winter. once it starts there is not much oyu can do, if germany would have left the russians would have continued towards germany. THey did open pandora's box I agree, but in all reality, russia had some poorly trained solders, and they didnt have the good tanks and aircraft at the time to enable them to win. Most of the technology they had was taken from germany anyways, like the t 34.

[Dante]

So why did Germany lose? The weather was certainly a deciding factor, even if they couldn't have done anything about it.

[TMA_1]

no doubt, all I am saying is that the germans werent stupid. They didnt just invade in the winter without thinking about the history behind it all. They didnt expect to be fighting in the winter. I was just getting at the fact that a lot of people dont trouble themselves with important details.

[Dante]

Well you'd think they could at least have supplied some Winter gear when it became clear that they weren't just going to sweep in.

[Atomic Mitten]

Man I give up ! like talking to a brickwall. ::)

[Dante]

So I'm stubborn. :P

Provide good enough reasons (and evidence) and I'll change my mind. That's happened before.

[Atomic Mitten]

[TMA_1]

they did eventually supply germans with proper winter equipment, they just werent used to the winter. They couldnt help but falter from the winter.

The idea I was trying to get across though is that they DIDNT attack in the winter, like many people I have heard say happened. I am getting to the overgeneralization of history by historians, you are stuck on this specific topic.lol maybe atomic mitten is right. ;) lol jk man :)

[Caid Ivik]

Hitler's main target was to destroy communism from the beginning, as it was only of his mirrors, another Weltherrschaft. Stalin just tried to get time with that peace, he knew that polish show was only a theater.

[Scrinlord]

I agree that it is kind of dumb for a teacher to promise to make you more liberal in the class. I have no problem with teachers doing "what if" scenarios, as long as they emphisize that the "what ifs" didnt happen. Having students think about what if situations can often make them think more, and make them learn more about the topic, but that only works if they know what REALLY happened as well.

And as far as Germany attacking the USSR, I dont think his mistake was in the time of the year he attacked, as it was the point in time durring the war. He should have waited until Britain was defeated, and not declared war on America, then he could have focused his energies on one front at a time, instead of splitting his forces.

[alchemi2]

He didnt declare war on america. and the winter only aided in slowing his assault. the extra equipment supplied by britian and america aided the russians as much as the winter. Also the rise of better generals within russian high comand and the mobalization of the russian people.

;)

[Atomic Mitten]

Actually it was nature that delayed Hitler,the year he started operation "Barbarossa" the invasion of the Soviet Union, they summer was unusually wet.

This turned to a quagmire making the quick movement of troops,nigh impossible,also their supply lines were brought to a standstill because of the mud.

The German Armys(Wehrmacht) were used to their Blitzkrieg tactics which suddenly were prevented from working, also due to the mud and supply problems.

The Battle for Stalingrad delayed the German intended capture of Moscow for nearly 8 months, and tied down alot of troops and machinery.

Napolean made exactly the same mistake, the Russians used the same tactics again of burning everything in the path of the Germans,and removing plant and industrial factories deep inside Russia.

This deprived the Germans of local food and supplies, the Russians deliberatley withdrew further and further into Russia, increasing ever further the German supply route, to their frontline.

All they needed then was to attack and cut this supply line and well the rest is history.

[Dante]

I get the feeling you're not taking me seriously.

[Atomic Mitten]

Oh ! the penny finally dropped. ::)

[Egeides]

I think that historians and others can have an opinion but they must make a clivage: "this is what is generally thought and I'm giving it to you", "this is the way I look at it" and finally "this is what some say but they aren't the majority's opinion nor mine".

It is always a human that's giving you the knowledge, not a machine. Denying it is an error, since it is to deny that soemoen trying to be rational can anyway make some errors and so on. I guess that Nietzsche would have some stuff to say about this, but I don't know him enough to get serious.