thinking machines

fremfedeliteNIAC · August 16, 2003

X is better :P

Caid Ivik · August 16, 2003

Ya hiya chouhada! Bay ti la djihad!

Creating a system, which has all physical advantages over human and still his last advantage, the mind, is like training an assassin to kill myself. We can't create a logic based on love for the others yet, due to today's mutual philosophy. Logic of the "thinking machine" would be animal-like, fascistic superiority of the kind. Logic will lead to our destruction.

Other fact is that if AI, creatively thinking robots, won't destroy us directly, it would cause our own suicide. People will lose their motivation to think - robot will do anything! Robotic philosophist would lead the humanity by the way of pure logic, they will become our gods. And once the logic will fail: we worship gods created by ourselves! Then will humanity have two alternatives. Butlerian Djihad or lose of sense of life and slow perishing.

EDIT : Do you put Communism into everything, Edric?

Communism is a totalitarian ideology, Ace. It's its nature to affect all aspects of life. Marx made by it a new "scientific replacement of religion", which seemed to irational in philosophy for him, but effective in action.

Apollyon · August 16, 2003

Ghost in the Shell blows.

Thinking machines are of course possible. When you think that research is already underway into biological machines, then where is this boundary between machine and organic drawn? If it is a case of replicating the neuron functionality in the brain to machine counterpart then that is very possible. Maybe this will finally prove whether the conscioussness of a human being is truly replicatable by man himself. Can we become our own God?

Stay tuned for the next episode to find out!

Caid Ivik · August 16, 2003

That's that fucking fruit Eva has eaten. We want now become a new god, our own god, we-god. Human imbecibility, trying to make human being higher as anything we've ever knew. This irrationality will once kill us all, if we'll remain in such course.

By the way, this is a thing more of other anime, Evangelion. But that ended rather elsewhere.

[hide]end of the world...[/hide]

Apollyon · August 16, 2003

It's ok, Caid. The men in white coats will be here to take you to a nice soft room any time now...

Emperor Harkonnen · August 16, 2003

Egeides: you are right about the capitalism thing. In the article I read it said that rich people would benefit the most from thinking machines. they would get power, and they don't need the rest of the people to work as war lords did before they can just kill every human they only need the machines.

Duncan_Ghola: I read the article in a scandinavian science magazine. any questions about it and I can look it up if you like.

it will be possible to combine AI brains with human brains and make cyborgs. it is a lot easier than expected to make the brain operate for example a artificial arm. that I have also read an article about

Dude_Doc · August 16, 2003

Remember that we are developping nano-tech as we speak. They could also be a good asset in the reseach of AI.

Edric O · August 16, 2003

Ace, you really should notice that I put capitalism into every post, not communism. I didn't even mention the word "communism" in this thread until now.

Caid Ivik, on the other hand, never misses a chance to throw mud at communism, no matter if he has to lie in order to do that. Take his post in this topic as an example: First he says that an economic system (in this case, communism) is a "replacement for religion", then he calls it a "totalitarian ideology", despite the fact that communism was created over 70 years before the idea of totalitarianism first appeared.

I know that you are all very tired of seeing me and Caid argue about these things over and over again. And the fact is that so am I. I would like nothing more than to take a very long break from all this... But as long as Caid keeps up the attacks, I have no choice but to keep defending.

Now, hopefully, we can get back on topic...

When I say "thinking machine", I usually imagine some sort of immensely powerful computer, which can give you a solution for almost any problem you present it with. Not an actual AI, but simply an unbelievably powerful problem-solving machine. After all, with the proper input data and with sufficient processing power, a computer doesn't actually need to think in order to perform the same function that human engineers, architects, managers, etc. always do: solving practical problems, which can be reduced to mathematical relations.

And about the issues raised by Egeides: Of course that the "thinking machines" will only be available to the rich. The large corporations will be the first to use them, I'm sure. But that doesn't change the fact that they will have a massive impact on human civilization. For one thing, there will no longer be any jobs (except in the arts) that a human would be able to do better than a machine. All human workers will eventually be replaced by machine workers, which will do the job better than them. And with that, capitalism will be officially dead... Replaced not by socialism or communism, but by a whole new kind of economic system: one based on 100% machine labour. Would that be good or bad? I have no idea...

SurlyPIG · August 17, 2003

also u said that computers are only 'devices that take input values and compute them to produce output values' how does that make them any different to us in that sense then?

Because we can output without input and we can output without outside instruction or 'programming'. Computers are simply a series of if/then statements, meaning that the computer is programmed to react in the way, "if the input is this, then output this". For example, a calculator; if the input is 3x4 then output 12. Humans, and other kinds of animals for that manner, can imagine without instructed or hereditary grounds for 'outputting'.

Duncan_ghola · August 17, 2003

http://www.hypography.com/topics/thinkingmachines.cfm

makes a good point, i read an article in a popular science magazine recently if i could find it i would add more detail, but i remember reading something about a robot being able to dream?

Dude_Doc · August 17, 2003

About the political issue with AI, they won't replace human workers until for a long time. On the other side, a machine does not need salary, insurance, food, safety (well, it need to be working in an area where it is not required to replace it everyday because of damage etc) and so on. I don't know what the corps. would gain more on, a machine that only needs maintenance now and then, or a human who requires pretty much.

Humans, and other kinds of animals for that manner, can imagine without instructed or hereditary grounds for 'outputting'.

And this is what we have to create. Not as simple as it sounds.

Emperor Harkonnen · August 17, 2003

but in the case where robots do all jobs then only the rich who ownes companies will get money if not the government owns these companies that is

Caid Ivik · August 18, 2003

People will break these machines like they did with sewing systems. For what should we have to live, when every work will be done by some things?

Duncan_ghola · August 18, 2003

thinking machines are already replacing workers, they have been for awhile,of course they dont think but its not just a machine, a machine is constantly controlled by a human

Caid Ivik · August 18, 2003

You can't say today's computers are thinking. They are doing some simple procedures, they are unable of creative thinking. If a computer would be able to i.e.imagine and write a book, then it would be dangerous.

Emperor Harkonnen · August 18, 2003

computers will probably never be able to write a book, or paint a painting or do anything creative.

they will always be a slave to logic and mathematical inteligence.

gryphon · August 18, 2003

One persone ones mentioned that we could create a machine. . or a hinking machine within a few decades form now. One that will be able to beat the turning point test.

[ for those of you who are unfammiliar with that term, it is said that ones a computer can stand trial for a crime, and makes up his hole history. . facts events things like that and motive what he did on the time of the crime, and a human judge can't tell the differance between the machines trial and a humans trial, the turning point test worked and there is a human like thinkin gmachine ]

Although now some are doubting that that isn't really hard to do. So they want to change it that that judge has to be a machine, and when it is able to do his job. The test has worked. Humans are capale of thinking beyond rules, not always punishing the wrong and rewarding the right. . a computer will only be able to follow desission.

Emperor Harkonnen · August 18, 2003

just to inform about one more thing from the article: when machines reach the inteligence of humans we have reached what scientists call the singularity

Dude_Doc · August 18, 2003

Think positive. We won't be "alone" anymore. Even if we have (ehum, will) created thinking machines by our structue (our envivornment etc), it will still be an experience to see how the machine will react, and how "it" will think of it's place as a new "intelligence".

fremfedeliteNIAC · August 19, 2003

why would we want machines as intelligent as that anyway? if we made them we can always restrict thier thought in one area, and make them proficient thinkers in another- so if we want workers we can just make them think like labourers but, prevent them from free thought and stuff

Dude_Doc · August 19, 2003

You might find this interesting:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/08/18/biological.computing.ap/index.html

fremfedeliteNIAC · August 19, 2003

"MINI STORAGE

A single gram of dried DNA, about the size of a half-inch sugar cube, can hold as much information as a trillion compact discs. "

;D

have you heard about these electron computers tho? apparently by using the properties of a few electrons, a computer can run an infinitly detailed and realistic world the size of earth.

ooohhh man that would be cool. i cant wait until virtual reality :-

Caid Ivik · August 19, 2003

Nice idea. How would you store those few electrons? How would you manage data to interface systems? That's a problem of all such things, they have thousand theories, but no possibility of practice. Until I won't see fusion reactor in New Jersey giving electricity to homes, I'm sceptical.

fremfedeliteNIAC · August 20, 2003

yea i dont see any of this happening soon, i dont think neuclear fusion ever happening...

Emperor Harkonnen · August 20, 2003

hey let's not get off topic >:(

what if we got a visit from thinking machines from another part of space, created by alien sentinent life. The machines maybe overthrew their masters and are now exploring space? what do you guys think of that?

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