Hell!...o everyone

[Acriku]

Howdy all. This will be the most hellish thread ever :)

To start discussion on Hell, can anyone point to a verse/chapter that explains god making hell. Or is it just assumed he made it? I'm just wondering because of the passive punishment argument, where God is not responsible for people going to hell because it's a natural consequence of sin, in other words it was there as long as sin was there. And sin is an action or thought against the commands of God. So, it had to be created when he created us. He made hell. So, I want to see the verse/chapter that says so. Thanks!

[TMA_1]

It says that hades is in the center of the earth. You can find that in many of the books of the prophets, the psalms and proverbs and in new testament books like revelations. After christ comes to the earth and purifies it, he will create the lake of fire. This will be a place that doesnt exist on earth. We dont know where it will be but probably in another realm like heaven. Both unbeliever and fallen angel alike will be placed there in the future. For right now though all unbelievers go to hades in the center of the earth. It was created obviously when god reformed the earth after the fall of satan.

the angels that cohabitated with humans before the flood, and angels that have been cast away have gone to the chains of darkness. It is a place of absolute darkness, where angels cannot escape until the ordained day when all hell will literally break loose on earth. It too is in the center of the earth.

[Acriku]

Ok, but I wanted verses... About him creating hell...

[TMA_1]

genesis chapter 1 verses 1 through 6

if you understood the rest of the bible it would make sense. you would have to read daniel, revelations, isiah, jeremiah, psalms, proverbs, job, and a few more I am forgetting to get a whole perspective on hell and where it comes from.

[Acriku]

Those verses deal with heaven and earth, oh but then hell is the center of earth, right? ::)

[Navaros]

Genesis does not talk about Hell

as usual TMA1 has *NO IDEA* what he is talking about. he just spews hot air directly out of his head and onto these boards

where does the Bible say that Hell is in the center of the Earth? I defy you to tell me even *one* verse in the Bible which states this.

i am not an expert on what the Bible says about Hell, but i certainly don't recall ever seeing the Bible say that Hell is inside of the Earth.

[Caid Ivik]

Hell isn't mentioned in Old Testament. There is only "sheol", the abyss, where are all dead souls. Messiah will come (for christians, has come) to open heavens for those good souls. Point on real hell is only in Revelation (i.e.20,10). However, this hell is privately for "beast" and "false prophet". Hell was more created by Dante than God, to be sure...

[Hawat]

I agree with Caid. The general picture of hell that exists in the minds of many people (inferno, flames, an evilly grinning devil with two horns and satyr-feet) is more inspired by various traditions. In the middle ages artists made big plays for the mass, showing devils that are coming for the sinners and angels coming for the ones without sin. And so this picture was carried through the centuries.

[Caid Ivik]

Everyone is a sinner, but that doesn't mean you are doomed. Jesus was talking about God's mercy and love for His creation, as I read... By the way, most questions about demonology and infernology can be found on this site:

http://www.occultopedia.com/index1.htm

[Egeides]

Bad is the absence of good. As "nothing" being the absence of "something" and not having an existence in itself.

[Hawat]

Right, Caid. The church bequested a wrong picture, which gas to be blamed for many of today's misunderstandings of christianity.

Before i look into the site: Where do they take their material from?

[Caid Ivik]

From many sources. I like it because it has the widest range.

But anyway, I wouldn't blame for it Church. Jews believe they will be punished by God already on the Earth, we've heard from John about some final judgement. What will be judged is a question, which you can answer by many ways...

[Acriku]

Hey, I agree with you Caid. Is the first mentioning of a hell when he says "where there will be wheeping and gnashing of teeth"?

[Caid Ivik]

I wouldn't say so. If we think about hell as a place of ethernal suffering, punishment, than this isn't suited. These places (like that part about ten virgins) are more about reaching the glory. People, which won't be ready for death due to lack of their good actions ("oil"), will feel pity for it. Gnashing teeth is a form of hidden, unjust anger, which we try to stop, because it hasn't sense. For infernal hell Jesus would use something with real pain, I think.

[Acriku]

Well what verses talk about hell? And how could a non-physical soul feel real pain?

[Caid Ivik]

See Revelation. According to it, and also some endings of evangeliums (Mt 25,31, Jn 5,28), it looks like it will be "created" on the doomsday. I've just looked to catechism, it points more times on the "darkness, where it's gnashing of teeth", and describes it as Jesus' challenge for us to turn on good side. Challenge for responsibility, as officially underlined in

[DjCiD]

Well what verses talk about hell? And how could a non-physical soul feel real pain?

I'm not sure what radio preacher I was listening too but it talked about hell not as a place where torture and torment goes on, it mentions that hell simple meant to be forever separated from God.

(This is kinda out there for a comparison)

Forever separated from God, to spend eternity wanting to be near him and nothing you can do about it. Think of the kinda pain that has on us humans now, say you have a crush on a lady friend, how bad does it fell inside of you when you cant see her. It's not physical pain but it might as well be.

[TMA_1]

actually most of our ideas of hell come from ancient jewish theology. The main idea is that all the dead souls go to abraham's bossom. Read the parable of lazerus. Both paradise and hades are located in the center of the earth, as noted in ecclesiasties, proverbs and so on. There is a rift between them, eventually though it says in the later gospels that christ decended down to hades to give the good news, then he "took captivity captive". Meaning he took the people of abraham's bossom and took them to the third heaven, the abode of God. Sheol is a general term for the afterlife. Both believer and unbeliever went to the same place. It was just sectioned out though.

To get a good jewish perspective on what hell is, read Josephus' documents on the theology of Hades.

[Acriku]

TMA, Jews don't believe in a hell. So what are you on about?

[TMA_1]

lol... I wouldnt be so general acriku.

here, this is the text I was talking about. Josephus wrote this to the greeks to explain to them what the jewish idea of Hell was.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm

[Acriku]

Of course, I'm only going by what my Rabbi tells me. And according to his words, Josephus' views on Hades do not apply to him and the synagogue.

[TMA_1]

and that is totally fine, I just think it would be wise not to say that all jews disbelieve in hell. If you read the various theological works of the rabbi's during the times before christ, they have much information on what hell is. Even reading cabalistic liturature will show you the views that many jews have on hell. Caid went a little too far in saying that there is no hell until it is created at the endtimes. The Bossom of Abraham is where all souls enter after death. Christ talks about this with the parable of lazerus. In the bossom of abraham, there are two places. One is torments, the other is paradise. There is a chasm between them, which is more of a metaphorical thing.

[Caid Ivik]

Flavius was a historian, not a rabi. Bossom of Abraham is the underworld, sheol. Hades is a greek word, so it is used for hell from times of Maccabi brothers. Only point of hell is Jesus' uncertain word "gehenne". But primarily, TMA, it isn't important when it was created, Heaven is over time, so Hell would be too.