US arranged 9/11?

[Hawat]

Just speaking from my own experience: The anti-americanism i perceive in my surroundings (friends, family etc.) started with the election of Bush. Hey, some years ago some friends had even stars'n'stripes banners in their rooms... I believe that today's hate can't be traced back to the events decades ago.

The german population is split in half. Schroeder won his last election only with a small margin and if you look the survey's now the CSU (christian social union, a more conservative party) would win easily. Nowadays you can't accuse whole germany of anti-americanism. It's just too bad we elected the wrong chancellor.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I've said it is majority, not everyone, if you read my previous post.

Bush's election, as a republican after half-anarchic liberal Clinton, was a return to politics of his predecessors Reagen and his father. Or we can go deeper, to Nixon, which was also hated by foreign media (well, this one suffered most from US media, but that's other cause). More for the republic's own intentions, more foreign security politics. Not big Lewinsky talkshow.

[Edric O]

Oh yes, let's talk about Reagan, with his "evil empire" rhethoric and the illegal weapons sale to Iran from which he got money to fund the Contra guerillas in Nicaragua...

Not that it makes any difference to you, Caid. You are a happy servant of the American Empire. You would obey Bush's orders without question. Hey, if you're lucky, maybe you can sell your services to some transnational corporation for 30 silver coins.

[Caid Ivik]

I tought you've disagreed with "stalinistic Breznev"...

I don't like stretching the points to other threads, but look again at your post, and count all the metaphores, comparements, mighty words and other forms of propaganda rhetorics ;)

[Edric O]

Hmmm, I never knew that metaphores were a form of propaganda... ::)

[Caid Ivik]

When used demagogically, then they are. You share many rhetorical points with Goebbels. I'm not saying they are bad, just rather...you know, that's not for us.

[Edric O]

Oh really? Do you have any actual PROOF of that, or are you just saying it to demonstrate your own propaganda skills?

[Apollyon]

Proof is subjective, and your posts, Edric are pure propaganda (or at least the ones I've read in this thread), containing little or no relevent useful information. You seem to spend more time ridiculing an opposing argument than enforcing your own. Indeed, you ridicule your opponent even more than their argument, or at least try to.

[Edric O]

I don't deny the fact that I have been rather too focused on attacking Caid in this topic than actually saying anything constructive. I let myself get carried away, and I'm sorry.

But then again, you should read my posts in other topics (particulary the ones which drew me into long discussions) before you pass judgement...

In any case, it's time to get back on topic. The only comment that I really wanted to make about the "9/11 conspiracy theory" is the one I made in my first post in this topic: Don't reject a possibility on a purely emotional basis.

[SurlyPIG]

Possible? Yes. It's also possible that wings will grow out of my ass. The fact that 19% of Germans actuallye believe it is dumbfounding...

[Edric O]

See, that's what I meant. You're rejecting it on a purely emotional basis...

[SurlyPIG]

Hey I said it was possible. I still think there's more likelyhood in wings growing out of my ass though. Don't even get me started on analyzing its validity...

[ordos45]

In reply to it most modern anti-Americanism in Europe began with Bush's election, trust me, a lot of us want him out of there too. I don't know how the man can legally be re-elected with the number of people who hate him.

(Insert Personal POV: Economy worse than ever in my lifetime, man started two wars that end in legal governments' toppling, working on war number three with either Iran or North Korea, he can't read from a teleprompter right, he's a former cocaine user, the only President I know of with a DUI, delaying sending in Peacekeepers to Liberia until the West African nations announce they'll go without the US...and then saying we'll be sending in thousands of marines, and thusly he is an Idiot.)

In reply to the Skinheads, Aryan Nations, the late (but not lamented) National Alliance, Ku Klux Klan...I personally find them disreputable. I agree with Hawat, every nation has its racists who take things too far.

Very few, percentage wise of Germany's population was Nazis if I remember my history right. (Please tell me if I'm incorrect.) One book I read once for English Class was The Wave, in it a class studying Nazi Germany decided to do an experiment in order and discipline, and in doing lead to the rush of power feeling, and eventual domination of the school. A good few hundred students who joined did so out of fear, history had repeated itself. Most people in Germany at the time of World War II were living in fear of the Nazi party.

In regards to propaganda...didn't Karl Marx once say something to the effect of 'all media is propaganda'?

And finally, Vietnam. Yes, we had giant protest marches, and even violent protests (Read about the Kent State protest where the National Guard fired into mainly unarmed students) around the United States. The war with Iraq produced marches in the USA as big as those that were against the Vietnam War, but were rarely covered by the media.

[Anathema]

Depends on how you define Nazi. After Hitlers takeover people were forced to join certain organisations like the Hitler Jugend and state unions, but only a very small part of them were hard core racists.

Hitler got to power because most of the other parties supported him. The only ones who did opose him were the socialists and the communists, but they were in a minority so they couldn't stop him.

About 9/11, I think it's safe to say the US wasn't involved in setting it up, though they could have prevented it if the CIA did a better job. However, it did turn out to be of great use to the president later, and he exploited the 9/11 and aftermath to the highest extent possible.

[Hawat]

Would say that too. Perhaps the fact that Bush used 9/11 to his advantage makes people believe that he could be heavily involved in or even arranged the attack.

[Caid Ivik]

I wouldn't look on government. Operation had to be planned for many years, and thinking about Clinton's revenge is laughable. But maybe choosing the primary target is interesting. I would put first plane on White House, than Pentagon and then maybe WTC. Why were Two Towers targeted as first? Very interesting fact is that 6 months before attack (about same time when bin Ladin announced a "surprise") they changed owner, who made also 7 billion insurance on it, while the cost is maybe one tenth. Couldn't be here a connection?

[Edric O]

Hmmm, I never knew about that... Can you give us more information about it?

Speaking of which, I just realized that I have no idea who the last owner of the WTC was. Does anyone here know?

[SurlyPIG]

The city of New York, of course. I believe it was built and owned by the Port Authority.

[Edric O]

Then I guess Caid was wrong...

[Dude_Doc]

If the government would be behind the WTC-attacks, I think they would make something bigger. Like a missile attack, or an atomic bomb. That would make a big impact, and telling people that how terrorists have such weapons, would really strike fear in the public. Also, consider that one plane crashed in Pennsylvania, if the government was behind this, I think they would have succeeded in crashing the plane into a building.

[ordos45]

If the government would be behind the WTC-attacks, I think they would make something bigger. Like a missile attack, or an atomic bomb. That would make a big impact, and telling people that how terrorists have such weapons, would really strike fear in the public. Also, consider that one plane crashed in Pennsylvania, if the government was behind this, I think they would have succeeded in crashing the plane into a building.

I can't remember the book, but one French Author tried to claim in his conspiracy book that the US was behind 9/11, and a missile supposedly hit the Pentagon. (Sorry to disappoint him, I knew someone who watched the plane hit the Pentagon in Washington D.C.) So, missile theory's already out there.

[Hawat]

Wouldn't say that. A missile attack would have aroused suspicion and it's not that difficult to trace a missile back to its origins. Flying an airplane into a building is much more... "subtle".

[Dude_Doc]

Wouldn't say that. A missile attack would have aroused suspicion and it's not that difficult to trace a missile back to its origins. Flying an airplane into a building is much more... "subtle".

It depends. If they would have used missiles and etc, it would proove the public how powerful terrorists really are.

[Hawat]

Yeah, that's right. Though missiles wouldn't have the same psychological effect. Taking a plane full of people is the ultimate demonstration of unimportance of human lifes.

[Caid Ivik]

So, you nonbelieving Thomases, let me introduce to you Larry Silverstein:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein.html

Spokojny zakaznik, dobry zakaznik 8)