Machiavel's classical exemple

[Egeides]

I once thaught back to this dirty trick from the baron:

Put Rabban with freedom to do whattever he wants so that Feyd would be claimed as a hero when he would put Rabban out.

The similarity to a classic Machiavel exemple from The Prince is striking, so it just stunned me: Machiavel is talking about ways to gain popularity, if it is better to be strict and unpopular or to try to be popular, etc. And he shows an exemple:

Some guy sent one of his henchmens to a newly gained city or fief saying "Don't be shy, be strict and don't let anything pass". Some time after, he went to this place with his army and executed his own henchman and took his place. It made him popular.

I just wondered if Herbert directly went to the classics and tryed to inspire himself from them, thus building Dune's foundations on classics... Remember, he also talked about Agamemnon and so on.

My 2 cents ;)

[The_Sadukar]

Machiavel was a genius

[Caid Ivik]

Niccolo Macchiavelli lived about 2 millenias after Agamemnon... Anyway, whole Dune story is full of macchiavelistic political games. Especially prequels.

[Egeides]

Yes, but the point is that Herbert is using exemples that seem to come out directly from classical, as if he had read the classical and incorporated them, thus making of Dune a "classical anticipe-fiction" novel...

[NHJ BV]

I think it's almost inherent to books as Dune to have classical elements in it. A lot of literature has it as well, I think (although Dune isn't literature :'( ).

[Caid Ivik]

If nothing else, Dune is already considered as classic sci-fi. As whole Asimov's generation. I wonder how it'll be considered after 200 years!

[Hawat]

Now that you mention it, egeides... Herbert also takes from the classical greek theater. The tension curve from House Atreides is similar to the ancient "laws" of a greek theatrical play.

First comes the rise, with the fief on Arrakis, rising until the cliffhanger with the Baron's trap and the deep fall of House Atreides.

Usually this fall is the fault of the main character in the greek plays. Just like most of the classical drama characters Duke Leto is a tragic character. Most honorable, but this plays him in the hands of the less honorable villains. From the beginning his fall is inevitable. Another similarity: Short before the fall there are moments of hope, when reading Dune you also find these: The Duke is aware of the threat and he has formidable plans and warriors to fight back.

Macchiavelli... Well i wouldn't say he was a genius. He had some interesting ideas that were revolutionary in his time, but mainly he favored aristocratic oppression. He even gave justifiable reasons for the use of force. In general he had a very bad picture of humans.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Macchiavelli wasn't for oppression itself, he told that state with unhappy citizens won't last long. But as I read his military strategies...well ok, he wasn't so genial ;D

[Hawat]

Ok compromise reached ;)

[Caid Ivik]

Do you believe that in time of arquebusiers and shrapneling artillery he preferred armored footmen with swords and shields as core of army? Well, weird guy...

[Vanguard3000]

Keep in mind that early firearms such as the harquebus were not as useful as one might think.

Remember that Mr. Herbert was a very well-educated man. Many of the things in Dune (and his other books) are based on classics. And yes, as Hawat mentioned, many of his characters are Aristotelian/classical heroes.

When you really look at it, Machiavelli was more of a radical than a genius. His basic ideas were nothing new, but many of them were frowned upon by the church. The Prince was even forbidden by Pope Clement VIII (I hope I have the correct number).

[Caid Ivik]

Arquebuse of the early 16th century was different than such guns in 14th. In this time there was already difference between pistols and rifles, even cavalry carried them.

Main problem, why Principe was banned, was because he laughed at medieval thinking of divine power given by hands of Pope to kings and emperors. That was very dangerous, especially when we know that in his time was papacy a feudal title, which balanced on stability. He wrote it just after his hometown Florentia was "freed" by Medicis from priest Savoranola, who wanted to use it as a base for revolt against Pope Alexander VI., which you know...